Wednesday, September 06, 2006

Some misconceptions related to the Nuremberg trials …

... come up again and again in discussions with "Revisionist" fanatics.

Read more!


Here, for instance, we have the claims of Mr. "Bergmann" in his post # 463 on the RODOH forum:

Mr. Mühlenkamp

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you could now show us where the IMT concluded on “4 million Jews in Auschwitz and steaming to death 900,000 Jews in Treblinka”, and which findings of fact in its judgment were based on “common knowledge” rather than documentary and eyewitness evidence assessed at the trial, that would be something. Otherwise, better keep your trap shut.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The one who should keep his big trap shut is Saint Roberto, the enlightened one.

By the way, how did you achieve that enlightened status about the Holocaust myth? Did you do those koans of the Zen practice?

Both the “4 million Jews in Auschwitz" and the "steaming to death of 900,000 Jews in Treblinka” were part of the Soviet and Polish indictments of those kangaroo trials and were not objected to by anybody to my knowledge. or were they?

They therefore form part of the Crimes against humanity of the IMT and NMT. which is spelled out in en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cri...t_humanity
for your spiritual enlightenment.

Since you told us that you once read the whole trial protocols (only idiots would do such stupid things to read 100,000 pages of text) you can check out the details yourself and avoid in the furture such stupid questions.

The following were declared guilt of these crimes against humanity including “4 million Jews in Auschwitz and steaming to death 900,000 Jews in Treblinka”, and sentenced either to death or imprisoned for many years:

Hans Frank, Wilhelm Frick, Walther Funk, Hermann Göring, Alfred Jodl, Ernst Kaltenbrunner, Wilhelm Keitel, Konstantin von Neurath, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Alfred Rosenberg, Fritz Sauckel, Baldur von Schirach, Albert Speer, Julius Streicher, Oswald Pohl.

Of course these crimes of “4 million Jews gassed in Auschwitz and steaming to death 900,000 Jews in Treblinka” were never investigated because of this beautiful provision:

»The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence.
The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge, but shall take judicial notice thereof.«


Mr. "Bergmann" is making the following claims here, decorated with a hallucination or lie (I never claimed to have read the entire protocols of any of the Nuremberg trials, for all I can remember) and some insults and/or senile baloney:

1. The International Military Tribunal, at the Nuremberg Trial of German Major War Criminals, declared it a fact that 4 million Jews had been killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.

2. The International Military Tribunal, at the same trial, declared it a fact that 900,000 Jews had been steamed to death at Treblinka.

3. The International Military Tribunal reached these findings of fact because it was not bound by technical rules of evidence.

4. The International Military Tribunal simply proclaimed the killing of 4 million Jews at Auschwitz and the steaming to death of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka to be facts of common knowledge and took judicial notice thereof, instead of asking for evidence supporting these allegations and examining that evidence.

Expanding on the reply I gave Mr. "Bergmann" in my RODOH post # 6996, I shall now address these claims, one by one.

1. The International Military Tribunal, at the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals, declared it a fact that 4 million Jews had been killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau concentration camp.

At a criminal trial, the document that shows the conclusions that the tribunal eventually arrived at after assessing the evidence presented by prosecution and defense, or procured by itself, is the judgment. In the judgment one can see which of the prosecution’s allegations the tribunal considered to have been proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

One should therefore look at the Judgment of the International Military Tribunal for the Trial of German Major War Criminals in order to establish whether, as claimed by Mr. Bergmann, the IMT declared the killing of 4 million Jews at Auschwitz-Birkenau to be a proven fact.

The part of the IMT’s judgment dealing with the persecution of the Jews by the Nazis can be found here. Unsurprisingly for who is familiar with "Revisionist" hoaxing, there is nothing in this pertinent section of the judgment about 4 million Jewish dead at Auschwitz-Birkenau. What the IMT wrote was the following:

The massacres of Rowno and Dubno, of which the German engineer Graebe spoke, were examples of one method, the systematic extermination of Jews in concentration camps, was another Part of the " final solution " was the gathering of Jews from all German occupied Europe in concentration camps. Their physical condition was the test of life or death. All who were fit to work were used as slave labourers in the concentration camps; all who were not fit to work were destroyed in gas chambers and their bodies burnt. Certain concentration camps such as Treblinka and Auschwitz were set aside for this main purpose. With regard to Auschwitz, the Tribunal heard the evidence of Hoess, the Commandant of the camp from 1st May, 1940, to 1st December, 1943. He estimated that in the camp of Auschwitz alone in that time 2,500,000 persons were exterminated, and that a further 500,000 died from disease and starvation. [...]


Emphases in the above quote are mine.

As can be seen, the IMT made no statements of its own regarding the number of people killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau, instead limiting itself to reproducing the estimate of former camp commandant Rudolf Höss that «2,500,000 persons were exterminated, and that a further 500,000 died from disease and starvation» under his administration between May 1940 and December 1943. There was also no statement in the sense that the victims of Auschwitz-Birkenau had all or mainly been Jews, which – independently of the fact that the majority of this camp’s victims were indeed Jews – belies the "Jews" part of the "4 million Jews" claim.

The IMT did well not to declare the figures given by Höss to be proven facts, for they were well above the mark; Höss himself would in his later pre-trial interrogations in Poland reduce the 3 million death toll mentioned in his testimony before the IMT to a realistic order of magnitude around 1 million, which has been confirmed by historical research. But that’s not the point of this exercise. The point of this exercise is to show that Mr. "Bergmann" should at least have read the IMT’s judgment before stating his claim, instead of shooting bull so easy to debunk.

Incidentally, not even the Nuremberg Trial Indictment mentions 4 million Jews killed at Auschwitz-Birkenau. The related statement under Count Three – War Crimes of the Indictment reads as follows:

About 1,500,000 persons were exterminated in Maidanek and about 4,000,000 persons were exterminated in Auschwitz, among whom were citizens of Poland, the U.S.S.R., the United States of America, Great Britain, Czechoslovakia, France, and other countries.


Nothing here about the victims’ ethnic or religious background; they were just stated to be citizens of various countries including Poland, the U.S.S.R., the United States of America, Great Britain, Czechoslovakia and France, period.

2. The International Military Tribunal, at the same trial, declared it a fact that 900,000 Jews had been steamed to death at Treblinka.

Unlike Auschwitz and Majdanek, Treblinka is not even mentioned under Count Three – War Crimes of the Indictment. In the judgment it is referred to along with Auschwitz as one of the camps that "were set aside" for the “main purpose” of destroying Jews not fit to work in gas chambers. However, there is not even an indication in the judgment about the number of people killed at Treblinka. Mr. "Bergmann" may have mixed up the Nuremberg Trial of the Major War Criminals with the trial of Treblinka’s commander Franz Stangl before a West German court in Düsseldorf, Germany, the judgment of which was issued on 22 December 1970 (LG Düsseldorf vom 22.12.1970, 8 Ks 1/69 , some excerpts of which are transcribed here). At this judgment the court, based on an expert opinion provided by German historian Wolfgang Scheffler, concluded that at least 900,000 people, most of them Jews, had been killed at Treblinka.

Yet the main "Revisionist" fuss in connection with the Nuremberg IMT’s findings regarding Treblinka is the claim that the IMT proclaimed the victims of that camp to have been killed by a somewhat improbable method, "steaming to death".

This killing method was indeed mentioned in an exhibit introduced as evidence at the Nuremberg Trial, Document 3311-PS. This document, offered in evidence at the morning session on 14 December 1945, was an otherwise quite accurate report from a Polish Government Commission on the investigation of German crimes in Poland, which contained the following statements:

Late in April 1942 erection was completed of the first chambers in which these general massacres were to be performed by means of steam.
[…]
After being filled up to capacity, the chambers were hermetically closed and steam was let in.


This erroneous description of the killing method – the victims in the gas chambers were not killed "by means of steam" but poisoned/asphyxiated with engine exhaust – may have been related to the report being based on the account of an outside observer of the camp who, not knowing what the foggy substance was that came out of the gas chambers when they were opened on a cold day (it may have been the engine exhaust and/or steam produced by the differences in temperature between the cold outside and the cumulated body heat in the gas chamber), speculated that it was hot steam, which the victims had been boiled to death with.

What matters here, however, is not how this error came into being but whether it found its way into the IMT’s judgment, for this alone would introduce an inaccuracy into the results of the Nuremberg Trial of German Major War Criminals. Even an elementary knowledge of criminal trial procedures should be sufficient to understand that, just because an exhibit was introduced as evidence at a trial, this doesn’t necessarily mean that the tribunal accepted all or part of that exhibit’s contents as reliable and a basis for its findings of fact.

It we now look again at the IMT’s judgment, we see that there is nothing in this judgment about anyone being "steamed to death", at Treblinka or anywhere else. The only reference to Treblinka in the judgment, which is included in the above quote from the same, reads as follows:

All who were fit to work were used as slave labourers in the concentration camps; all who were not fit to work were destroyed in gas chambers and their bodies burnt. Certain concentration camps such as Treblinka and Auschwitz were set aside for this main purpose.


So Treblinka was accurately stated in the IMT’s judgment to have been a place were Jews not fit to work were destroyed in gas chambers, i.e. killed by gassing and not by "steaming to death". The IMT presumably arrived at this conclusion regarding the killing method, and accordingly dismissed the description of that method in the above-mentioned Polish report, based on the testimony of Samuel Rajzman. Rajzman clearly stated that the killing had been done in gas chambers.

As Mr. Bergmann also referred to the Nuremberg Military Tribunal (NMT) and its trial of Oswald Pohl, the following statement in the records of that trial should be mentioned:

In the spring of 1942 an extermination camp was established at Treblinka. It contained 10 death chambers and opened up for business in the early autumn of 1943. Death was inflicted here by gas and steam, as well as by electric current.


This statement is not part of the Opinion and Judgment of the United States Military Tribunal II against Pohl et al, however. It is contained in a Concurring Opinion by Judge Michael A. Musmanno, the pretense of which, as Musmanno stated here , was to provide «one document sufficiently comprehensive to which the legal profession and the lay public, now and in the future, can turn for an authoritative account on concentration camps» so that these future readers would not «be required to read through thousands of pages of transcript and scan tons of documents to obtain an adequate picture of this supreme crime against humanity through the ages». Said account was thus not a statement of findings of fact essential to the tribunal’s judgment against Pohl et al, but a friendly service to future readers of the trial documentation, meant to save them the work of having to go through all the files in order to make themselves familiar with “this supreme crime against humanity throughout the ages” as pictured by the evidence.

While Musmanno’s account, despite its somewhat emotional tone (he wrote, for instance, that «In comparison to Hoess, Genghis Khan was a Sunday school boy, Torquemada an entertaining Micawber, and Ivan The Terrible, an innocuous, benevolent, old man.») can indeed be considered authoritative, in the light of later research, in what concerns many aspects of the Nazi system and its crimes, the part dealing with the killing methods applied at Treblinka is clearly one of the inaccuracies – there are also others, like when Musmanno locates at Auschwitz Kurt Gerstein’s description of a gassing at Belzec – that diminish the authoritativeness of Musmanno’s record.

However, and incomprehensible though it is – given the above-mentioned evidence previously assessed by the International Military Tribunal, namely Rajzman’s testimony, and the above-quoted findings of fact stated in the IMT’s judgment – that Musmanno spoke of death by “steam, as well as by electric current” besides gassing at Treblinka, Musmanno’s opinion was a document separate from the tribunal’s judgment against Pohl et al and not part of the tribunal’s findings of facts stated in that judgment, in which the tribunal expressed its concurrence with the IMT’s findings of fact regarding the persecution of the Jews.

This means that, contrary to what Mr. “Bergmann” claims, the “steaming to death” of people at Treblinka was not part of the sentence against Pohl any more than it was a part of the sentences against those defendants at the Nuremberg Trial of German Major War Criminals whom the IMT convicted on the War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity charges.


3. The International Military Tribunal reached these findings of fact because it was not bound by technical rules of evidence.

This claim is related to the following provision of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal:

Article 19.
The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and nontechnical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to be of probative value.


The implication is that the absence of technical rules of evidence means there was no adequate assessment of the evidence in favor and against the defendants.

To establish whether this implication holds water, one must first understand what technical rules of evidence are and what effect they have.

The following definitions of rules of evidence can be found on the web:

Standards governing whether evidence in a civil or criminal case is admissible.


The rules that govern the method of presentation and admissibility of oral and documentary evidence at Court hearings or depositions.


Rules of law which determine which testimony, documents, etc. should be submitted for consideration by a judge or a jury, and the weight such evidence is to be given in determining a question of fact.


Rules of evidence govern whether, when, how, and for what purpose proof of a case may be placed before a trier of fact for consideration.

According to these definitions, rules of evidence are rules that tell a court of law

a) what evidence it is allowed to take into consideration as proof of any or certain facts relevant to its decision,

b) how it must handle such evidence as may be used as proof, and

c) what weight it must or may give to such evidence.

Rules of evidence like the US Federal Rules of Evidence, contain strict stipulations as to what types of evidence may or may not be used to establish facts in general or certain types of facts. Thus, for example, Rule 602 stipulates that «A witness may not testify to a matter unless evidence is introduced sufficient to support a finding that the witness has personal knowledge of the matter». According to Rule 608, «The credibility of a witness may be attacked or supported by evidence in the form of opinion or reputation», subject to certain limitations. Specific instances of the conduct of a witness, other than conviction of crime, «may not be proved by extrinsic evidence» for the purpose of attacking or supporting the witness' character for truthfulness, according to the same rule. Evidence that a witness has been convicted of a crime shall be admitted or not for the purpose «of attacking the credibility character for truthfulness of a witness», pursuant to the provisions of Rule 609. According to Rule 802, hearsay is not admissible as evidence, except if it falls under one of the numerous exceptions provided by the Federal Rules of Evidence themselves, by other rules prescribed by the Supreme Court pursuant to statutory authority or by Act of Congress. Proof of the content of a writing, recording or photograph generally requires submission of the original (Rule 1002), subject to a number of exceptions including but not limited to those established in Rules 1003 to 1007. And so on.

Submitting a tribunal to strict rules regarding types of evidence it may use as proof of a given fact and the conditions such evidence must comply with is not the practice in all legal systems, however. In Continental European countries like France and Germany, judges have more freedom in deciding what evidence they consider conclusive proof of a given fact, rather than being bound by rules regarding the types of evidence they are or not allowed to consider for this purpose. Thus, for instance, article 261 of the German rules of criminal procedure (Strafprozessordnung) stipulates the following (my translation):

About the result of the hearing of evidence the court decides according to its free conviction derived from the trial as a whole.


This means that the court is, on the one hand, obliged to take all evidence into consideration in its decision (provided of course that the evidence is relevant and has been lawfully obtained). It is free, however, in determining what facts it considers proven by what elements of evidence submitted, why it holds a certain witness to be credible or not, etc., without being bound to requirements other than the absence of reasonable doubt as to the facts it considers proven.

As no one will reasonably dispute that France and Germany are constitutional countries requiring their criminal justice authorities to give suspects and defendants a fair hearing, this means that technical rules of evidence such as those cited above are not an indispensable requirement of a fair trial, and that their absence in the Charter of the International Military Tribunal was not the outrage that "Revisionists" try to make believe it was. According to a retired US attorney with knowledge of the German and French legal systems, technical rules of evidence tend to be done without even in the US where the trier of fact is not a jury, consisting of amateurs with no juridical training or experience, but a professional judge. This gentleman, writing as Walter Kaschner, stated the following in a post on what is not the Axis History Forum, which is transcribed in this thread of the RODOH forum:

As to your notion that the Tribunal’s procedures were flawed because it was not bound by formal rules of evidence and could take judicial notice of governmental documents, I can only say that however highly we in the US regard our own rules of evidence that regard is not generally shared on the Continent (at least in France, which I know quite a bit about, and in Germany, which I think I know something of) and they seem to get along pretty well without them. Don’t forget that half the members of the Court were continental lawyers, and as far as I know none of the defense lawyers were familiar with our highly technical evidentiary rules. Moreover, even in the US, in cases where a judge, rather than a jury is the trier of fact, our evidentiary rules are often ignored and the judge allowed to give the evidence whatever weight he deems it’s worthy of. And in our own practice judicial notice is customarily taken of governmental documents if prepared in the ordinary course of business, or if purporting to reflect official acts or decisions.


Emphases in the above quote are mine.

Confirming Mr. Kaschner’s assessment, here are a few references to judicial or administrative decisions or hearings in the US or Canada, where technical rules of evidence are done without:

The hearing need not be conducted according to the technical rules of evidence relating to evidence and witnesses.


The Immigration Appeal Division, in any proceeding before it,
(b) is not bound by any legal or technical rules of evidence; and

(c) may receive and base a decision on evidence adduced in the proceedings that it considers credible or trustworthy in the circumstances.



In any investigation or hearing, the commissioner shall not be bound by the technical rules of evidence.


The technical rules of evidence do not apply. Any evidence may be received, except that an Administrative Law Judge may exclude any evidence or offer of proof which is immaterial, irrelevant, unduly repetitious, or customarily privileged. Every party shall have a right to present his case by oral and documentary evidence and to submit rebuttal evidence.


It having thus been shown that there is nothing sinister about the absence of technical rules of evidence at a judicial proceeding, the question that remains to be examined is, why were technical rules of evidence excluded when putting together the Charter of the International Military Tribunal?

The answer to this question goes in the direction of Mr. Kaschner’s above-quoted statement that «half the members of the Court were continental lawyers, and as far as I know none of the defense lawyers were familiar with our highly technical evidentiary rules». In his report Nuremberg in Retrospect, the erstwhile Nuremberg prosecutor Robert H. Jackson wrote the following:

The rules of evidence that should govern the tribunal might have caused serious disagreement if we had insisted on our own. Continental lawyers regard or common-law rules of evidence with abhorrence. Since they were involved in response to the peculiarities of trial by jury, we saw no reason to urge their use in an international trial before professional judges. They have not generally been followed by international tribunals.[my emphasis – RM] We settled, therefore, upon one simple rule: that the tribunal "shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value." While this vested considerable discretion in the tribunal, it had the merit of making admission of evidence turn on the value of what was proffered rather than upon compliance with some formal rule of evidence.


So the reason for the absence of technical rules of evidence at the Nuremberg Trial of German Major War Criminals was clearly not anyone’s intention to screw the defendants, as their "Revisionist" apologists would like to believe. The American jurists wanted to apply technical rules of evidence such as were applied in the US, but this approach was disliked by the jurists from Continental Europe involved in the making of the Charter, presumably for the simple reason that they and/or the Continental European judges nominated as members of the International Military Tribunal didn’t know a thing about US-type rules of evidence and accordingly would have been unable to handle them at the trial. The Americans decided to compromise, as said rules «were involved in response to the peculiarities of trial by jury» and they thus saw no reason to urge the use of these rules «in an international trial before professional judges». This compromise, as Mr. Kaschner pointed out, arguably benefited the defense insofar as none of the German lawyers acting as defense attorneys was familiar with technical rules of evidence as applied in the US.

At the later trials before the Nuremberg Military Tribunal, which were a purely American affair, this compromise was no longer necessary, however. This was probably the reason why, for instance, the Einsatzgruppen Trial was conducted in accordance with US rules of evidence, as mentioned by Yale F. Edeiken in his recommendable article An Introduction to the Einsatzgruppen.

4. The International Military Tribunal simply proclaimed the killing of 4 million Jews at Auschwitz and the steaming to death of 900,000 Jews at Treblinka to be facts of common knowledge and took judicial notice thereof, instead of asking for evidence supporting these allegations and examining that evidence.

This claim is related to the following provision of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal which, like Article 19, is also presented as having a sinister, particularly "Nurembergian" content:

Article 21.
The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof. It shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and of records and findings of military or other Tribunals of any of the United Nations.


Regarding the second sentence of this provision, Mr. Kaschner (see above quote) pointed out that, also in US juridical practice, «judicial notice is customarily taken of governmental documents if prepared in the ordinary course of business, or if purporting to reflect official acts or decisions».

As to the first sentence – the bone of Mr. "Bergmann"’s contention – it takes but a look at the US Federal Rules of Evidence to realize that taking judicial notice of facts deemed to be of "common" or "general" knowledge is provided for in these rules as well. Rule 201 has the following wording:

Rule 201. Judicial Notice of Adjudicative Facts

(a) Scope of rule.
This rule governs only judicial notice of adjudicative facts.

(b) Kinds of facts.
A judicially noticed fact must be one not subject to reasonable dispute in that it is either (1) generally known within the territorial jurisdiction of the trial court or (2) capable of accurate and ready determination by resort to sources whose accuracy cannot reasonably be questioned.

(c) When discretionary.
A court may take judicial notice, whether requested or not.

(d) When mandatory.
A court shall take judicial notice if requested by a party and supplied with the necessary information.

(e) Opportunity to be heard.
A party is entitled upon timely request to an opportunity to be heard as to the propriety of taking judicial notice and the tenor of the matter noticed. In the absence of prior notification, the request may be made after judicial notice has been taken.

(f) Time of taking notice.
Judicial notice may be taken at any stage of the proceeding.

(g) Instructing jury.
In a civil action or proceeding, the court shall instruct the jury to accept as conclusive any fact judicially noticed. In a criminal case, the court shall instruct the jury that it may, but is not required to, accept as conclusive any fact judicially noticed.


The definition of a "judicially noticed fact" in subdivision (b) of Rule 201 describes what is generally held to characterize a fact of "common" or "generalized" knowledge, according to the Notes to Rule 201: it is a fact that is (1) generally known within the territorial jurisdiction of the trial court or (2) capable of accurate and ready determination by resort to sources whose accuracy cannot reasonably be questioned. According to a California judge’s ruling at a lawsuit between Mr. Mel Mermelstein and the "Institute of Historical Review", the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944 was to be considered a fact subject to the taking of judicial notice because it was «not reasonably subject to dispute» and «capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy».

While the above shows that there is nothing sinister about a provision allowing the IMT to take judicial notice of facts of common knowledge rather than require proof of such facts, this doesn't mean that the mass murder at Nazi extermination camps could be considered a fact of common knowledge already at the time of the Nuremberg Trial of German Major War Criminals in 1945/46, when criminal justice authorities were only beginning to investigate these crimes. Accordingly, and contrary to what Mr. "Bergmann" claims, the IMT did not pronounce these crimes to be facts of common knowledge and simply take judicial notice thereof, but looked at evidence regarding the occurrence and scale of these crimes.

Evidence regarding Auschwitz-Birkenau and/or Treblinka brought before and assessed by the IMT included the following:

• a communication to Himmler dated 16 December 1942 by Mueller, for the Chief of the Security Police and SD (document R-91)

• an affidavit made in London by Dr. Rudolph Kastner, a former official of the Hungarian Zionist Organization, regarding the deportation of the Hungarian Jews in 1944 (document 2605-PS)

• an official Polish report on Auschwitz Concentration Camp (document l-161)

• an official United States government report issued by the Executive Office of the president of the United States, War Refugee Board, on the German camps at Auschwitz and Birkenau (document L-22)

• the affidavit of Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess dated 5 April 1946 (document 3868-PS)

• the testimony of Marie Claude Vaillant-Couturier

• the testimony of Severina Shmaglevskaya

• the testimony of Rudolf Franz Ferdinand Hoess

• the Stroop-Report (document 1061-PS)

• the above-mentioned Polish Government report about Treblinka (document 3311-PS)

• the above-mentioned testimony of Samuel Rajzman

None of this evidence would have been required it the IMT had simply taken judicial notice of the mass killings at Auschwitz-Birkenau and Treblinka as facts of common knowledge. This means that the "Revisionist" claim under examination is false, just like the others before.

Claims of this nature are not uttered only by hard-core "Revisionists" like Mr. "Bergmann", by the way. On the Scrapbookpages site about Buchenwald concentration camp, more precisely in this section, one reads the following nonsense:

At the International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg in 1945, the Soviet Union charged that the Nazis had made soap from human fat in the concentration camps. Soap that was allegedly made from human fat was displayed in the court room, but no forensic report on the soap was presented. No forsensic proof was required because it was common knowledge that the Nazis had made soap out of the Jews.

Article 23 of the Constitution of the International Military Tribunal stated that "The Tribunal shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge but shall take judicial notice thereof."


Apart from the fact that what the author of these lines calls "Article 23 of the Constitution of the International Military Tribunal" was actually Article 21 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, the author apparently forgot to read his own quote, which would have told him that, if the IMT had considered it a fact of common knowledge "that the Nazis had made soap out of the Jews", no proof whatsoever of that "fact" would have been required. Yet the Soviet prosecutor who introduced the issue of human soap into the Nuremberg Trial before the IMT substantiated his allegation that «In the Danzig Anatomic Institute semi-industrial experiments in the production of soap from human bodies and the tanning of human skin for industrial purposes were carried out» (he didn’t make a general claim that "the Nazis had made soap out of the Jews") with evidence which, besides the Exhibit USSR-393 that the Scrapbookpages author is referring to, included the following:

• the testimony of Sigmund Mazur (Exhibit USSR-197)
• a copy of "the recipe for soap produced from the corpses of the executed" (Exhibit USSR-196)
• the sworn statement of British POW John Henry Witton (Exhibit USSR-264)
• the sworn statement of British POW William Anderson Neely (Exhibit USSR-272).

Whatever one may say against the evidentiary quality of these exhibits and their conclusiveness as proof of an intention to manufacture soap from human bodies, rather than the mere use of maceration fat for cleaning purposes, the fact is that the Soviet prosecutor presented a fair amount of evidence for an allegation which, had it been deemed a fact of common knowledge, would have required no evidence at all.

If the IMT has considered it a fact of common knowledge that "the Nazis had made soap out of the Jews", as the Scrapbookpages author claims, there should also be a statement in this sense in the section of the IMT’s judgment dealing with the Persecution of the Jews. Yet what you read there shows that the IMT, while it went further in its conclusions than was warranted by the evidence presented by the Soviet prosecutor (which referred only to a single case of a possible attempt to make soap out of human fat, the experiments at the Danzig Anatomical Institute, and contained nothing warranting the conclusion that the corpses used at the Danzig Anatomical Institute were necessarily of Jews), made no statement in the sense that "the Nazis had made soap out of the Jews" but merely spoke of occasional ("in some instances") attempts to make soap from the fat of the (Jewish) victims of Nazi persecution:

After cremation the ashes were used for fertilizer, and in some instances attempts were made to utilise the fat from the bodies of the victims in the commercial manufacture of soap.

Let’s hope that the Scrapbookpages don’t contain too many ignorant claims like the one under discussion. Otherwise their author should consider scrapping the first "S" in the name of his production.


Thanks to Sergey for his valuable input to this article.

Sunday, September 03, 2006

A Clarification for Cesspit Lemmings

Just to add to what Sergey wrote below, it should be clarified that of the four of us on this blog, I have never once registered a username at The Cesspit, not even a sockpuppet. Andrew, Roberto and Sergey have all suffered the indignities of vanishing posts and spurious bans (read: because they showed Hannover up too much), but not me. Therefore Cesspit lemmings will have to come elsewhere to debate me, for example at RODOH.

Lemmings notice us once again

Boo-hoo, "Hektor" posted a link at the Cesspit. Well, do you think these mental midgets would try and debunk anything? Address the factual statements, etc.? You know, debate. What CODOH (The Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (snicker)) is all about (supposedly). No, instead here's what we get:
Look at the contributors:
Andrew E. Mathis
Sergay Romanov
Nick Terry
Roberto Muehlenkamp

Those clowns wouldn’t find their way out of a telephone booth. See them get spanked on this forum. Just search on their last name.
Is this is what one of our anonymous commenters called a "typically Jewish ad-hominem attack"? Of course, while we weren't banned at the Cesspit, and while our postings weren't being simply deleted (quite a nice way to make it look like you've "won" a debate), the midgets were spanked mercilessly. Then again, even if you will look at distorted versions of the debates, with postings deleted, etc. - even then you will see that deniers were being refuted by us at every turn. Not only that, CODOH Circus is still being humiliated by us.

Alas, lemmings are not fast learners. They're a great cannon fodder, though.

Saturday, September 02, 2006

Minutia

Several interesting recent lectures on the Holocaust in English and German can be found here.

Monday, August 28, 2006

The Cesspit just keeps on giving

Yet another circus act, this time from "vincentferrer" and "Haldan".

Read more!

I found a item on ebay recently which has become a great tool for introducing Holocaust Revisionism to people, who might not otherwise ever ask about it.

If you search on ebay using the keyword Maximilian Kolbe, you will find a seller offering $ .98 black stickers, 2x3.5 inches in size. These stickers are a little smaller than a credit card and have large white numbers on
them: 16670. In very small print it then says, St. Maximilian Kolbe, pray for us.

Most people cannot read that , but they can see the 16670.

I have placed this sticker on the inside of my windshield at the lower left hand side of the window.

And does it ever get people curious.

It then allows me to explain this is the number of a Auschwitz inmate, a non Jew who was in Auschwitz and died............ by a lethal injection.

This is about the fastest route into debunking the legend about Gassings that I can think of. If that does not provide a great door opener for sharing the truth of Revisionism to strangers, I do not know what could.

I also carry a stack of brochures from the IHR and in particular a handout titled, The "Problem of the Gas Chambers" by Robert Faurisson


It works, and that is the botton line.
So, basically, this stupid pig admits that his way of introducing denial to unsuspecting people is black propaganda. Because how otherwise this method could be characterized, if, according to the Auschwitz Chronicle Kolbe was murdered on August 14, 1941? The earliest date mentioned for the first experimental gassing in Auschwitz (significantly, of non-Jews) is August 15, 1941 (testimony of Michal Kula).

So how does that prove anything?

(Of course, lethal injections continued throughout the existence of the camp, so even if Kolbe would be murdered by lethal injection after gassings started, that still wouldn't prove anything. Obviously, sometimes it was more efficient to kill a small number of people with injections rather than wasting Zyklon B on small groups or waiting for the next Jewish transport.)

Not surprisingly, our old friend "Haldan" is wetting his panties in awe:
Yes, it is a good eye opening argument, which infact should work good in this practice, of showing a person that the idea of German "gas chambers" is absurd on the face of the available facts.

It has been written that Kolbe suffered from active tuberculosis and therefore I wonder why it wouldn't have been more convenient to march this man to one of the alleged "gas chambers" along with 1999 Jews or other sick people, or any number of people which the alleged "gas chamber" could hold!

Convenient as in following the story line of the Hoaxco$t, I mean. It is afterall incessantly repeated that those who were ill had to be "gassed" upon arrival.
How come the Cesspit attracts mostly degenerates into its ranks?

The Unbearable Stupidity of the Cesspit

As usual, some "revisionist" lemming ("Hotzenplotz") has found something which he, lacking any imagination and common sense, cannot explain, and therefore rejects.
The upper camp is connected with the lower camps by a small gauge ("narrow track") railway, as we are told. More precisely, what we see is that the mass graves are connected with Sobibor's station. The railway leads directly to the platform.

What could possibly be the purpose? SS-men travelling between the two parts of the camp? Illogical.


Read more!

First of all, there would be no need for a railway to transport a couple of men for just something like 200 metres. Sounds like a loona park. Secondly, there would be no reason for the tracks to lead to the station. If the railway was to facilitate quick transport between the two parts of the camp, it should end right in the middle of the lower camp, not in front of the "pre-camp". Or was it built for SS-men from the upper camp going "downtown" or on holidays? Absurd. They didn't leave that often and certainly could have walked the 200 metres. Why not use a car or truck, anyway? Or was the railway for supplying coal to the crematoria? There were no crematoria. For transporting the belongings of the "gassed"? No, they were taken away from them already in the lower camps. We know the deportees had to walk naked along the "tube" ("Schlauch") leading to the "gas chambers".

I therefore conclude that the deportees, after having been gassed and dumped in the mass graves, arose from the dead to take a train ride back to Sobibor station!

The Sobibor small gauge railway is an instance of the characteristical appearance of details within a story of lies that don't fit in logically. Within this story, the railway makes perfect sense: Lots of Jews came from the disinfection installations/ shower rooms (a.k.a. "gas chambers") in the upper camp who had to be channeled back to the station swiftly - for transport to the eastern territories. Sometimes several thousands a day. Some of them were old, some children. Instead of whipping them along, the SS chose to build a small gauge railway which ended exactly where it should, at the station, so that the deportees could change to the next train.
Poor schmuck is so silly that he won't be embarrassed even when the obvious will be pointed out to him:
Elderly people, the sick, and invalids who were unable to walk were told that they would be taken to a Lazarett (infirmary) where they would receive medical treatment. Actually they were put on carts, pushed by men or pulled by horse, and at a later stage on a narrow-gauge railway carriage, and were taken into Camp III, directly to the open pits, and there they were shot.
Arad, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka, p. 77.
Another technical improvement introduced in Sobibor was a narrow railway trolley that ran from the disembarking platform to the burial pits in Camp III. It was to replace the carts pushed by prisoners or the horse-drawn carts on which the dead, the sick, and those unable to walk from the train were transferred to the pits. According to Oberscharfuehrer Hubert Gomerski, who was in charge of Camp III, the length of the narrow railway was about 300-400 meters. It included five or six trolleys and a small diesel locomotive.
Scharfuehrer Erich Bauer testified:
... Part of the trolleys and rails originated from the sawmill that bordered the Sobibor camp. Additional trolleys and rails arrived by train from Trawniki. The locomotive of this train came later, about two months after the trolley was in operation. At the beginning horses pulled the trolleys. As I explained in previous interrogations, the trolley was laid to transport the sick and handicapped Jews from the arriving trains to Camp III. I know that these people, including the handicapped and sick, children, and particularly infants, were taken to the so-called Lazarett, and there they were shot by those serving in Camp III. ... It was known in the camps that this Lazarett was used not for healing but for the extermination of the people. ...
Op. cit., pp. 123-124.

Finally, here's the description by the Company Commander Westermann of the arrival of a train to Belzec, a related extermination camp:
The ever greater panic spreading among the Jews due to the great heat, overloading of the train cars, and stink of dead bodies – when unloading the train cars some 2,000 Jews were found dead in the train – made the transport almost unworkable.
The report of Zugwachtmeister Jaecklein confirms the number of the dead:
The ever increasing panic among the Jews caused by the intense heat, the overcrowding in the wagons the stink of the dead bodies – when the wagons were unloaded there were about 2,000 dead in the train – made the transport impossible.
There is no reason to suggest that situation was any different in Sobibor. So that's the simple answer to the silly question.

Now, deniers like to babble about "common sense". But they themselves have none. It doesn't make sense to build a railway to disinfestation chambers, because the chambers can be built near the ramp. It does make sense to build a railway to the mass graves (if the materials are available), because the graves themselves cannot be situated too close to the ramp for obvious reasons.

And still, another denier lemming ("Laurentz Dahl") is very happy about the first lemming's "find":
Nice find.

However, in our upsidedown cloud cuckoo world of today, common "sense" would probably have it that the nazis at Sobibor were so evil that they had to kill their victims twice.

Rutger Hauer they had to gas at last thrice of course...
Gee.

And of course, both lemmings are at loss as how to explain the whereabouts of the Jews transported to Sobibor. "Eastern territories" doesn't cut it, kids. They would have been found in these territories after the war, just as the Jews sent to Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Chelmno.

But they weren't.

Update: Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis makes a total fool of himself:
What stands out like a liar's big nose is the area designated as 'mass graves'.

Those alleged mass graves have never been shown to actually exist.

If the laughable yarns were true they would excavate and make a enormous media event of it.

Remnants of such alleged mass graves are impossible to obliterate.

The claimed 'mass graves' do not exist. Doesn't get any simpler than this.
Except that the mass graves have been found:
Researchers have discovered seven mass graves at the Sobibor Nazi death camp in north-eastern Poland.

The research team, which began its government-sponsored investigation in the summer, said the graves - the largest of which is about half the size of a football pitch - contain charred remains.

Commercial Decisions Aren't Censorship...

...but try telling that to the deniers. Johnnie 'I'm not Hannover' Hargis just threw his rattle out of the pram after receiving an email from Michael Santomauro, acting business manager of VHO while the boss is in jail, saying that US firm PayPal has suspended VHO's account on the grounds that it violates their acceptable use policy on two counts.

Firstly, because "PayPal may not be used to send or receive payments for items or in support of organizations that promote hate, violence, or racial intolerance." Secondly, and this one makes you wonder why it wasn't enforced sooner, because "PayPal also prohibits a person convicted of a violent felony, or his relatives or associates, from using PayPal to benefit financially from the convicted criminal's notoriety or crime.". Now, if you want to split hairs, Young Germar is not a violent felon, merely a deluded pseudo-scientist, but there's little doubt that VHO is soliciting donations on behalf of Rudolf and precisely because of his notoriety.

The response from Hargis is predictably hilarious and utterly paranoid. The ninny automatically assumes that the 'judeo-supremacists' must have been behind it, which would be news to 'avowed libertarian' Peter Thiel, co-founder of PayPal, or to the founder of eBay, Iranian emigre Pierre Omidyar, methinks.

In any case, as the title of this post alludes to, both Hannover and Santomauro don't have a legal leg to stand on. The First Amendment applies exclusively to the US goverment, not to private corporations, who have the legal right to enforce any restrictions they so desire. It's the e-commerce equivalent of the shopkeeper saying 'we don't want your business here'.

Holocaust deniers have been largely shut out of the bookstore trade by simple economics - their books evidently don't sell well enough to warrant much interest from Borders or Barnes & Noble - but remain tolerated on amazon.com, since online bookstores can cope with niche interests better than physical ones. PayPal's decision, however, cuts to the very heart of an operation such as VHO.

How long before they try the hypocritical tactic of comparing the ban to certain boycotts in the past? Not long, probably. Expect to see some smart-ass mouthing off shortly about 'Revisionisten unerwünscht', oblivious to the irony.

Saturday, August 26, 2006

Meet Celtic Patriot's Best Friend

Ah, the Stormfront. Home of the alternatively-thinking, alternatively-gifted, alternatively-spelling Neanderthals. We have already seen one SF high-IQ specimen, Celtic Patriot.

Here comes the next Alternative Genius - MiketheReeper.

Hi, I'm Mike. Mike the Reeper! Aaaaargh!

Mikey tries to tackle my article about the "revisionist" lies about Alexander Pechersky.

He doesn't do very well, and his spelling is the smallest part of the problem.
Absolutly! There it is, the proof that the "Holocaust" happened!! I must thank you for finally, after how many hundreds of posts this is what you introduce ...The disrespectful rantings of a self-righteous "Holocaust" enforcer who "knows" what happened and therefore does not feel he has to share all facts relavent.
Um, Mikey, are you living in your own fantasy world, or something? (You probably do.) Where anything about the "the proof that the "Holocaust" happened" is mentioned in the article? The paragraph you're dealing does not mention it either. Hmmmm... The article does deal with the deniers' lies though.
So..he saw but he didn't?
Mikey, Mikey, Mikey. Are you on medication, or something? (You probably are.) Didn't you read a few paragraphs later:
Pechersky's description is not only hearsay, it is at least second-hand hearsay. ... But Graf omitted this crucial fact, destroying any credibility he might have ever had.
To make it easier for you, Mikey:

1. Pechersky didn't see it.
2. Nobody said that Pechersky saw it.
3. Pechersky himself didn't say that he saw it.
4. The person Pechersky talked with explicitly said that even he didn't see it.
5. Go to 1.

Mikey again:
Oh, I have a "eyewitness testimony that helps explain the use for the "gas chamber" having fossits and shower heads.
Camp inmates may have sometimes heard real screams and mistakenly assumed that they were the screams of people being killed. For example, consider Sarah Cender's eyewitness account of her arrival at Auschwitz, as quoted by Martin Gilbert (Auschwitz and the Allies, Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1981, p. 309):

"Upon arrival we were separated from the males and brought in front of a building where heaps of clothing were lying on the ground. We were ordered to undress quickly and naked we were pushed into a pitch dark chamber (what we naively and hopefully thought to be a bath facility -- although no soap or towel were given to us).
The doors closed behind us. Anxious seconds and minutes passed. Nothing seemed to happen -- for a while. Only cries and laments and hysterical screams we heard from every corner of the chamber. Some of the women started to cough incoherently, believing being choked by gas. The situation became unbearable....

Eventually, after a bombing raid, the doors were opened and Cender and her companions were ordered out of "the chamber". But how many camp inmates heard their "hysterical screams" and assumed that they were being gassed?
So how does this testimony explain anything about showers and faucets?

I understand, of course, that smart, long texts are confusing for poor Mikey:
I am assuming since this sites ideas are almost confusing
Don't assume, Mikey. That makes an ASS out of U (but not ME).

PS: Mikey's butt buddy Hektor chimes in:
But if you really believe they debunked the videos, you certainly also believe in the "gas chambers with opening floors", do you Trojan11?!
Boy, aren't you stupid, Hek! How much of "I did not see that" should we repeat to you? Whatever Biskowitz saw from a distance, in a hurry, and described as a hollow with the bodies, he said about the "collapsing floor": "I did not see that". And historians rightly don't use this part, because it doesn't mesh with other descriptions, but it doesn't discredit Biskowitz, exactly because of the circumstances in which he witnessed whatever he later described as a hollow with bodies. To repeat: it was at a distance; he was in a hurry. This doesn't add to credibility of these particular observations, and does not detract from Biszkowitz's overall credibility, because exactly these circumstances help to explain why Biskowitz got it wrong.

Saturday, August 19, 2006

Another denier runs away

An interesting exchange took place at The Skeptics Society Forum. Nick challenged a rather dull and dim denier "David" (who, we suspect, is a certain David Allen of San Francisco, who is somehow related to a well-known denier Andrew Allen):
David, please list all witnesses claiming to have observed diesel engines at the Aktion Reinhard camps of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. Please spell out their actual position in the camp, the level of their technical education. Please also add in those witnesses claiming to have observed petrol engines at the Aktion Reinhard camps.

What is the evidentiary basis for your claim that diesels were used at all?
David's answer:
Whoa there partner, you are the Believer...I don't believe in
no diesels, no how.

So you are asking ME to tell YOU what Believers believe about diesels?


Well, it seems to be all over the range. Some claim diesels really
are deadly, some say diesels are kinda of deadly, some say
diesels are irrelevant, some say zyklon. Asphyxiation, smothering,
heat...I've heard many a differing tale.

So please excuse a poor non-Believer for being confused.

But I can tell from the direction of your question that you are
one of them new style "gasoline" Believers! Tell me if I have you
pegged right.
Some people just don't understand. Or understand too well. But Nick doesn't give up:
No, David, I'm asking you to SOURCE your claims that the gas chambers in the Aktion Reinhard camps have always been described as diesels.

That means presenting convincing evidence that all witnesses to these camps said diesels. If you - or any other 'revisionist' such as Berg - can't actually prove that all witnesses said diesels, why should we listen to you blather on?

In case you are puzzled, the evidence is independent of historians. Please try not to confuse the two. It really doesn't help matters very much, and it suggests you have been asleep in any history classes you have attended should you persist in mistaking one for the other.
As his Titanic was sinking, David let out his last breath:
As the Diesel Myth slowly splutters to an end I would like to
move on to a new Treblinka topic.

[...]

Wednesday, August 16, 2006

Moon landing, shmoon landing!

So, NASA lost the original Moon landing footage.

I guess that means there was no footage in the first place. At least if we use Jonnie "I am not Hannover" Hargis' logic. All too often when confronted with quotes from incriminating documents from scholarly sources his only defence is "Where are the originals?", as if it is absolutely necessary to always consult the original pieces of paper with text, as if one can never rely on scholarly literature (which is a pretty standard practice).

Well, no, Hargis won't apply the same reasoning to the Moon landing or most other proven historical events. Try asking Jonnie for Katyn evidence (in jest), and a scanned image of a xeroxed copy will suffice. Not so for the Holocaust documents. The Holocaust is unique in this sense - for the deniers.

Sunday, August 06, 2006

More CODOH Circus

Valiant "Haldan" is all for logic, reason and science!
I know you are asking specificially about scientists, but those who believe in the Holocaust in general are typically motivated by feelings, intuition [hunches] as opposed to logic, reason and science - hence they shed away from doing any serious research on the matter, preferring mainly to be dependent on questionable documents and "eyewitnesses".
Except...
I just don't believe the Germans 'gassed' the Jews, that's all -- and if there is a document which supports this absurd allegation, it must be forged, faked or otherwise altered -- because the Germans never 'gassed' the Jews.



Tags: k0nsl

CODOH Circus

We can rely on the Cesspit to bring us the best unintended humor out there.

In this thread an exposed falsificator "polardude" tries to cast doubt on legitimate photos. He thinks that on this photo the "street lamp which is standing in the middle of this waste land seems out of place".

Interestingly, he is quickly corrected:
It's not a streetlamp. It's a pole and there's a small stain on the picture or on the negative.




Update: the embarrassing thread has been deleted, as usual.

Friday, July 07, 2006

Learn English, "Claudia"!

At the Cesspit we see yet another ignorant neo-Nazi posing as an expert. It is a German denier "ClaudiaRothenbach" (don't assume that it is a female).

"She" writes:
In his affidavit for the trial of Irving against Deborah Lipstadt Dr. Green, the chemist, cites Mazal. As Green writes in a footnote:
Mr. Mazal is the President of the Holocaust History Project and has conducted onsite forensic investigations of Auschwitz.
Now let us read what Mr. Mazal writes:
As may be observed in the eight photographs above, penetration of Prussian Blue into either the wall material inside of the building, or the bricks on the exterior, is minimal, corroborating previous reports. It is possible that very porous materials such as plaster might permit a slightly greater penetration of the stain, but not to the degree claimed, without proof, by Holocaust deniers.
This guy (he is OBE *) tells us that Prussian Blue only moves minimal in wall material. And Dr. Green (chemist and expert) cites Mazal without commenting this bullshit.

Prussian Blue is solid and one of least soluble substances in the universe. So it does not move at all - least at all in wall material.

"Holocaust deniers" know that ant they won't prove that "very porous materials such as plaster might permit a slightly greater penetration of the stain". Never.

I ask again: Where did brainless Green purchase his "Dr. of Chemistry"?
Now, to every person who has both a basic knowledge of English and a brain, it is clear that Mr. Mazal is talking about the depth of the stain. Nowhere he wrote or implied that Prussian Blue somehow "moved".

So is "revisionism" a product of stupidity coupled with the language barrier?

Anyway, down the thread the Cesspit pond life claims that Mr. Mazal is "less than honest" for not accepting an unproven denier claim that HCN can somehow penetrate the wall. Of course, as usual, deniers ignore Mr. Mazal's observations on Prussian Blue in Auschwitz:
There is an as-yet unsolved mystery of how Prussian Blue made its way through apparently solid brick walls leaving it's tell-tale blue stains on the exterior of both bath and delousing chambers in BIa and BIb in Birkenau.
In a still unpublished report, Mr. Mazal gives more details about this mystery. Namely: how did HCN get from the delousing chamber and across several meters onto the inner and even outer walls? For example, the second photo of Germar Rudolf in that thread was not taken in a gas chamber. This wall is separated from the gas-tight door of the delousing chamber by 5.2 meters of space and (partially) by walls of a small room (the walls which don't exhibit Prussian blue staining, by the way). How did that happen? We don't know, but HCN-soaked mattresses might be the answer. Deniers surely have not offered any alternative explanation. So why do the Cesspit nitwits scoff at Mr. Mazal's explanation, without offering any of their own?

Because they are dishonest.

PS: liar "Claudia" (see the comments) doesn't stop. E.g. "she" writes:
What this "expert" wants to tell us is that "penetration" has nothing to do with "move".
Of course, I never wrote such a thing.

PPS: And some pond scum projects:
I already got the impression those Holocaustians like to play with words. This way they can avoid dealing with hard facts. They live in their own world and get gullible others into believing in it.
Of course, it is "Claudia" who plays semantic games, all the while knowing that Mr. Mazal wrote nothing about "moving" Prussian Blue. And of course it is deniers who won't address the point raised above.

Why deniers are generally despised

Here's why.

Thursday, July 06, 2006

Doesn't look like a girl to me.

This has been posted at the Stormfront by one of the most demented deniers out there, who goes under names "The_Skunk" and "Mark_Twain" at the Cesspit and elsewhere.

Meet Joe Bellinger

An author Joseph Bellinger is hailed at the Cesspit for writing an allegedly serious research book about Himmler's death. Interestingly, Jonnie "Pinky Smooth" Hargis quotes a passage from Bellinger that doesn't show his writing skills in a favorable light:
Once upon a time there were three targets selected for assassination. There was the 'BIG H' –Hitler, the 'little H' – Himmler, and the 'littler H' – Heydrich, as dubbed by England's SOE, and then, there was the 'littlest h' – Höss.

The first three needed to be put out of the way and the 'littlest h' was reserved as a 'defence' witness for Kaltenbrunner, as well as for other purposes. Of course Kaltenbrunner – 'little K' – also was in no position to speak for 'little H’ – Himmler, which is of course exactly why he was chosen.
Ugh. Did you manage to read through this babble? Imagine a whole book written in this style.

Anyway, Bellinger did manage to publish a German version of his book, which is strange, considering that he is a vulgar Holocaust denier. He's been known on Usenet by many names, such as fafner13, debunks, jbelling, rblackmore. Quick search establishes that Bellinger clearly shows a Stormfront-like mentality, mindlessly parrotting antisemitic memes, and posting antisemitic ditties. Such is yet another "revisionist" hero. And deniers really expect to be taken seriously?

Wednesday, July 05, 2006

Someone should get a brain

Orac says almost all there is to say about LaShawn Barber's attempted redefinition of neo-Nazi scum known as Prussian Blue as a mere "white pride" group. Of course, it is painfully obvious what they're up to, when their official site links to the denier screed Dissecting the Holocaust (lookie here or here), edited by Germar Rudolf, known primarily for pushing ... "Prussian Blue" arguments; or when we know that their mommy is a columnist for one of the largest neo-Nazi websites out there. Interestingly, it's not the first time these "bad" racists are mistaken for... how to say it... "good" racists.

Sunday, June 25, 2006

"polardude" (aka "Lurkerthe") pwns CODOH

Someone going under nickname "polardude" (he is known as "Lurkerthe" at RODOH, "Colonel Blandish" at alt.revisionism, and, probably, by other names) writes at CODOH:
A quick background on this image (there also a few others) in response to interest of where they came from (well, actually there has been no such interest but anyway).

I obtained them from an amateur historian Sergey Romanov in late 2004. I had infiltrated a holocau$t online community using a false identity. Sergey was passing around some of these images from early soviet propaganda archives he had access to. He was openly boasting about how bad some of the early soviet agitprop was and how lazy and incompetent revisionists were for not hunting it down and exposing them. He said, I think he is correct, that in this shot and others not only is it clear that the chimney has just finished being built, but there aren't even any ovens installed yet!!

I wonder if Mr Romanov is feeling so pleased and cocky now?
Each (yes, each) claim here is a lie, of course, and "polardude" is a well-known troll, whose shtick is denial of existence of crematoria in Nazi camps (incl. Auschwitz, Dachau and Sachsenhausen). I don't know whether it is a mentally ill person, or just someone with too much free time on his hands.

Anyway, what is interesting is how other deniers quickly swallowed his claims. But then, CODOH crowd has always consisted mostly of gullible fools, and some outright liars. And, as we know, "revisionist" forgers are nothing new - Myroslaw Dragan, Emil Lachout, "Gregory Douglas", etc.

So in this case, thanks to a liar "polardude", gullibility of some CODOH pond life has been exposed once again.

Thursday, June 22, 2006

Who Created The 'Hoax'? Inquiring Minds Are Still None The Wiser

Continuing yesterday's experiment with tuning out the rantings of internet Nazis, here's the second and hopefully final part of an increasingly hilarious attempt to persuade a raggle-taggle group of racialists, Holocaust deniers and Holocaust sceptics at The Phora to name the author of the alleged 'Hoax'.

As our good friend Xcalibur of the valiant RODOH Watch found out to his cost when he actually read through the original thread, and complained about in the comments below, there's much to be said for this hearing-one-side-of-a-telephone-conversation approach. Above all, you don't have to listen to the deniers ranting, rambling and drooling. Oh, the things we spare you, dear readers...

With that, over to the action.

Read more...


After a hard day's work, Sulla the Dictator returns circa 7pm Californian time to find that the shambling jelly monsters have been ululating in his absence. But first, a bit of thread housekeeping.
I ignored your post because you repeated yourself. You didn't seem to understand my reply. When there are documents and evidence which support 'exaggerations', then either they ARE NOT exaggerations or they have been fabricated (the evidence). This thread isn't about how much of the Holocaust you believe in, its about who is doing the actual leg work of fabricating evidence in your people's world. If you don't think that happened, then I don't see what your point is here.

This done, it's time for a new angle on the question. Might the Evil Commies have hoaxed the Hoax? Let's find out...
Well it looks like the Illuminati, the Templars and the New York Times are the best we can come up with at the moment, so I have another question that might get a more clear response.

The shadows of the Cold War were already being cast over Europe in late 1945 and 1946. Why would the Soviets support a charade about this genocide of European Jews in 1946? The Soviets were FAR less comitted to any consistant theme or government message to its own people than the West was, since there were really no consequences for lying to its public. The Soviets also had an interest in delegitimizing the West German regime, and beyond that the victorious leaders of both England and the United States. What better way to do that than expose this massive conspiracy to frame the German people?

And why would this conspiracy to cover up the Holocaust continue from one General Secretary to the next? Revolving members of the party apparatus had an interest in 'sweeping away' the mistakes of the last, 'exposing lies and crimes'. Why would Nikita Khrushchev reveal the atrocities of Joseph Stalin, and NOT his conspiracy to frame the West German workers who the Soviets were interested in swaying?

Why would the Soviets engage in a pro-Jewish conspiracy while they were arming the states of the Arab league, or considering military intervention against Israel in 1967?

Why would the Soviets be training members of the PLO while hiding this bombshell?

Of course, there's always the Illuminati. The Soviets need to be concerned with their wrath. (rofl) But why wouldn't the Soviets LEAK this information to someone else? There were plenty of neutral powers, such as the Indians, or the Swiss, or the South Africans. Why wouldn't the Soviet educational system allow an exchange program of academics to 'stumble across' this evidence? Why wouldn't the Soviets leak this information to the Egyptians? We scoff at these Arab Holocaust deniers because they're just angrier versions of ours. But if they had documents in hand, that would be a different story.

Does this prod more of a response from the deniers? No, of course not. The shambling jellymonsters want to talk about their pre-programmed debating 'points' instead:
This is an academic claim? Did you ever consider how....childish....it is to suggest that illustrative metaphor be interpreted as literal fact? Do you believe that there were 10,000 tribes of Gaul? Or that Pickett's Charge was resulted in a literal bath of blood?

And again, you don't seem to understand the point of this post. The levels of blood seeping out of the ground in a Nazi killing field is not relevant. That isn't "the Holocaust". Thats a testament to the horror of the aftermath of such butchery.

What you don't seem to realize, however, is that there is PLENTY of evidence for the slaughter at Babi Yar. This is, in fact, one of the Eastern front actions that I don't think even Holocaust deniers on this board would say didn't happen.

The action was done by Sonderkommando 4a. The report reads as follows:
"Berlin, October 2, 1941
Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service
48 copies (36th copy)
OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No.101
Einsatzgruppe C, Location: Kiev
Sonderkommando 4a in collaboration with Einsatzgruppe HQ and two Kommandos of police regiment South, executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941.
Einsatzgruppe D, Location: Nikolayev
The Kommandos continued the liberation of the area from Jews and Communist elements. In the period covered by the report, the towns of Nikolayev and Kherson in particular were freed of Jews. Remaining officials there were appropriately treated. From September 16 to 30, 22,467 Jews and Communists were executed. Total number 35,782. Investigations again show that the high Communist officials everywhere have fled to safety. On the whole, leading partisans or leaders of sabotage detachments have been seized."


I mean, to deny this is simply ridiculous. But if you're going to do it, the purpose of this thread is to identify who made it up, who ordered it to be made up, and who continues to force people to believe it.

Thats not a claim that historians have ever made. I believe that was in an editorial written by some fellow who was at Buchenwald. How is that at all relevant?

This is a ridiculous way to talk about history. Were we to apply it, we would have to stop believing in half of the battles that took place in the Classical world, as someone would say that he was 'imbued with the strength of Mars'.

Identify it. I no longer deal with generalities.

Well, lets start with a quesiton. How many books have you read on the Holocaust?

No reply. Next up, the increasingly obnoxious Wintermute, spewing venom, runs charging at Sulla and impales himself on the usual contradictions.
Except that you ignored specific cited examples. Thats not surprising, indeed its par for course with people like you. To make the above statement you quite simply must ignore the flood of Soviet revisions, retractions, and policy shifts as well as admissions, inquiries, and falsehoods. But thats fine. Ignoring facts is what you do. Of course, its quite possible you never learned them.

One of the things that seems so convenient for people like you is that since you don't believe in "Orthodox" history, you never have to bother to learn it. Which allows for all your website fiction. Much easier to browse, and how fortunate! It conforms with your pre-existing biases!

Thats how someone like you can come here and say "The Soviets had to be concerned with a loss of legitimacy" or "the Soviets were worried about public lies". Which is utter rubbish. The Soviet leadership could care less about the 'public reaction' to what it did. You would know that if you bothered to actually learn about the USSR.

"Nothing stretched the creative powers of the politruks more than the job of explaining the news. Looking at Soviet foreign policy in the last few months of peace, one almost feels sorry for them. Most troops were not sophisticated men, and many could not reas a paper for themselves, but even a semiliterate drunk would have noticed a curious change of police in 1939. On 23 August the Soviet foreign minister, Vyacheslav Molotov, signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany.
Red Army men had been forced to sit through sermons on the threat of Fascism for a decade. Now, suddenly, they were told that the Germans had become their allies. On Stalin's sixtieth birthday in December 1939, the telegrams of congratulation included one from Adolf Hitler. The Fuehrer included his best wishes "for the happy future of the friendly people of the Soviet Union:.
Neither civilians nor troops knew what to think about the news of the pact. When their turn came to explain it, political staff were forced to draw upon the revolutionary rhetoric of historic progress. It was always possible to talk of international proletarian solidarity, and the German working class held a special place in Soviet imaginations, not least because its industry was so admired. But the idea of a treaty with Hitler could only be a shock. Cadets in one staff college thought the story was a spoof. Elsewhere, a politruk simply gave up when someone asked him if the next war would be an imperialist one. "There's no point," he answered, "in counting imperialist wars...When the war's over, a party congress will convene, and they'll tell us what type of war it was"."

Ivan's War, Catherine Merridale, Page 72

And thats just one example of a Soviet leadership indifferent to how policy related to public opinion. Those details were left to the political officers and party vizhods spread across the USSR.

No one would have been hurt more than the West by the revelation that the Holocaust was a fraud. The Soviets were the most anti-semitic power on Earth after the end of WWII, and in the Cold War era their allies were composed of minor anti-semitic powers. There is no motive for hiding this 'conspiracy', especially as Israel fell more and more under the American sphere of influence. Of course, in your 'reply' (Which was not a response) you ignored all but 4 lines of my post. I suppose that you do a lot better when you're simply talking to yourself.

The Russians were under no obligation to invent the issue in the first place. And moreover, they could have BLAMED the West for the forging of documents.

Moreover, this Illuminati Holocaust conspiracy could have been exposed by Khruschev when he brought Stalin's other dealings to light. Why would he specifically HIDE this event? There's no reason he would, of course, which is another glaring whole in this Soviet-Illuminati connection.

So then the Soviets didn't lose more than 13 million soldiers and civilians in the war? Wintermute might be the only Holocaust denier LEFT who denies EASTERN atrocities as well as concentration camps!

As I've already told you, the Soviets were more than willing to blame the West for fabrications, tricks, and academic traps.

Yeah, thats really funny.

But please, be more of a Nazi cheerleader. It really goes over well when reading it. It does suit you though. Its 'funny' how the death camps were in the East, and its 'funny' how the war criminals ran West.

But since you have claimed that its all just a bunch of lies, then why would the 'war criminals' be in the West, since the Soviets could throw anyone in a uniform and claim he was the group leader for a death squad which never existed?

Oh, thats right. Wintermute SELECTIVELY believes in Soviet academic and historic integrity.

Well you see, thats just the thing. The Russians allowed unprecedented access to the Soviet archives throughout the 1990s. I must have missed the revelations about the Great Holocaust Code, starring Tom Hanks.

ROFLMAO This is Wintermute using the PC nutter's approach to what Illusion already told us: The Illuminati, the Templars, Freemasons, and Rothschilds. Different names for the same thing.

I would ask the 'fence sitter' to examine his experience of the world. Consider what you've read of history, economics, and politics. Is this how the world works? Shadowy smoke filled rooms inventing historical events, plotting against nations, conspiring against you?

We used to give people psychiatric care for paranoia. Now, with the Internet, they're free to spew their sickness all over our computer screens. Its all cute at first, and weird. But after a while, it just becomes boring.

Let me guess: You have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.

Start a thread about Barbarossa and I'll happily thrash you on that issue as well. You've already taken this thread off topic enough. We won't be discussing the "defensive barbarossa operation" here.

If there are 'forged Holocaust documents' in that book, share them. Then identify what Western history books they have been used in. I suspect that there are not, otherwise I wouldn't have to ask you for them.

Evidence?

Evidence?

Evidence?

Evidence?

The reader is again invited to evaluate. Here we have a rather vulgar bigot in wintermute (Notice the unnecessary 'kike' statement, for shock value and to 'prove' himself to his fellow anti-smites. He's 'one of them'), who alternately suggests that the Soviets were the greatest evil in human history and 'alright guys, after all is said and done'. They 'took it easy' on the East Germans, they 'gave the major part of access' (?) to a German historian. Barbarossa saved the world.....but things wern't that bad after the Germans LOST that campaign.

This is an inconsistant worldview. Why though? The answer is quite clear. They have no answers to the question. They don't know WHY the Soviets would do this thing they claim they did, they just 'believe' they did it. They don't know WHO did it, they just 'believe' it was done.

They aren't interested in learning things, or achieving accurate conclusions. No crimes in history meet the burden of proof Holocaust deniers require. Wintermute believes in mass rapes and murders when the Soviets occupied Germany. Why though? There is less evidence of that than there is for the Holocaust. Virtually ALL of those claims are from 'eye witness testimony' by Germans, who have the same anti-Soviet motivation to lie that the Holocaust deniers claim Jewish victims of the Holocaust did.

Holocaust deniers are rabid believers in Stalinist atrocities. Why though? The estimates of those deaths vary by MILLIONS, not hundreds of thousands like the Holocaust. And yet while Holocaust deniers claim that such a variance of estimates means the thing never happened, they'll simper and whine about "Allied atrocities" ala gulags until you give them a pacifier.

But you have claimed that the Soviets were responsible for most of the fabricating. Why would the Soviets fabricate evidence to indict a subject population and then not use that? Why would the Soviets indict a West German population they were trying to seduce?

Wintermute is pretty much making this up as he goes along, folks, so be patient with him. Lets take stock of where he's 'led' us. The Soviets were planning on invading Europe, and the Germans bravely invaded them first! They saved Europe! But....then they lost the war, and as the Soviets advanced they fabricated evidence of the Holocaust (Simultaneously, the Western Allies were doing the same thing).

Then, they occupied Germany, and absolved the people they had framed of any responsibility for these atrocities they fabricated. Then they launched an anti-semitic purge, started arming the Arab neighbors of Israel, and considered launching an airborne and amphibious invasion of Israel. Israel, the nation they had conspired with the Rothschilds (I'm sorry, the "World Bank") to create.

They began to train and arm PLO terrorists while they secretly held the documents ordering the fabrication of the Holocaust.

Then, the Soviet Union fell apart. And as new Russians took the jobs of Soviet party hacks, they found these documents and independantly decided to hide them from academic view at the same time they cleverly allowed unprecedented acces to old Soviet archives. The Russians were willing to allow Westerners to look at documents where Stalin is signing off on executions, but were utterly unwilling to allow the documents ordering the forging of documents to be seen.

I assume that these documents were sent to the Vatican for safe keeping, right next to the secret birth certificate for Mary's love baby with Christ.

Troll #2 returns, still whining about Elie Wiesel:
Thats really interesting George, and thanks for your input. I notice, however, that you go on to say alternately:....

Of course, and if you reference my previous post, you'll see that one of my points is that to question some claims made about the 'Holocaust' is not to question all such claims.

Which, I guess, leads me to believe that you are 'so wise' that you didn't know that this 'geysers of blood' business refers to Babi Yar. So when I told you about Babi Yar, I was referring to this specific event. So your 'revision' is the idiotic point that a 'geyser of blood' didn't happen (Which is illustrative language), but you don't deny that Babi Yar happened. Thats really interesting. How is the CONSEQUENCE of the slaughter as relayed in illustrative langauge supposed to be 'some claim' about the Holocaust thats relevant to the actual Holocaust? The murder of people at Babi Yar is whats relevant. The height of blood squirting out of the ground where they're buried is not relevant.

By the way, you didn't answer the question. How many books on the Holocaust have you read?

The rest of your post is trolling, so I'll ignore it.

George, is your trolling due to the fact that you have nothing to contribute, but need to have my attention?

Except that the troll ignored the fact that I was asking for evidence:
"b.) Other items often held up as pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily fabrications, but the interpretation of their significance as 'evidence' is fundamentally flawed, predicated as it is on the inherent biases and preexisting beliefs of the investigators."
Identify it. I no longer deal with generalities
Meaning: "Other items" and "pieces of evidence" and "interpretations". How am I supposed to deal with "Other items", unnamed?

Its strange how off topic this thread needs to go. Why can't we get some answers to the two basic questions? Is this the best you people can do?

Is your lack of knowledge about the Holocaust and your inability to answer a few simple questions the reason you want to talk about WMD and the war in Iraq?

Is that how this works?

This topic isn't about racial matters. Its about facts regarding history. George referred to some vague, nebulous 'facts' in dispute. I asked for specifics, because I can't rebutt 'evidence' that he won't share.

Still waiting, BTW.

You noticed that it had been changed to Jews (By people unable to answer questions), which is why those posts have been moved to the Race forum. Under the title of "The Jews".

Back to Wintermute, who tries the ol' Burden-of-Proof Table Tennis tactic, and gets the ball thwacked back onto his side of the net.
Can anyone see an actual reply to my post in Wintermute's response?

We'll wait and see. I doubt we'll be hearing you address any substantial portion of the post. I can see how replying like this appeals to you. How about we try this: Why don't you prove to us that the US State Department, the World Bank, and the Harvard Economics Department equals Jewry. And why don't you prove that somewhere else than this thread, which isn't about your Jew fetish?

It must be nice to have a cheering section of preinstalled idiots who can keep applauding your tripe, Wintermute. It allows you to keep your illusions about how you're doing intact. Fortunately, I don't care about your Neo-Nazi cheering squad. Your inability to answer simple questions has been shown again and again. Why would you expect me to be familiar with the details of your particular lunacy regarding conspiracies to destroy Aryan Russia?

"I am a despicable troll, and I'm sorry for willfully misrepresenting your words"
You're forgiven. Maybe you're not as despicable a troll as you appear.

"This is false.
Please answer the question as asked above: do you continue to maintain that my account of the IMF/Harvard/the Clinton Administration is tantamount to Illuminism, Templarism, and the like?
It would seem you are the one here who does not wish to answer questions.
Wintermute"

I'm not going to discuss the IMF/World Bank/Harvard economics department/Clinton State Department/Soros conspiracy absent its relevance in to this thread. If you can relate it to the Holocaust, we'll discuss it. If not, take it elsewhere. Preferably, to the swamp hut.

After which, the thread degenerates into whines, complaints and insults as the shambling jellymonsters (since reduced to two in number from the original 11) realised they have been pwn3d, again.
Well, I guess thats it. I'm sorry I was hard on you, Wintermute. After your spamming of reported posts, I've come to realize that I've deeply wounded you. You and George Clark both. Terrible thing. Between my harshness and my apparent 'moderator abuse', maybe I should just let you folks have this forum as an echo chamber.

Obviously Holocaust Deniers can't handle scrutiny.

Please stop trolling, George Rogers Clark. You've shown through your excessive neg repping, complaining about recieving negative reputation, and reported posts that you have a great deal of concern for the civility of the forum. If you have anything to add to the topic, please contribute. If you do not, please save it for the lounge.

Report the post, Dan, or start a thread in the Help Desk.

Backing away from my claims? Not at all. Everything I said stands, unassailed, since you ignored the entire post. Its just that it means a great deal to you. Enough, obviously, for you to suggest that just by replying to you I'm violating my job as a moderator. You made something like 3 or 4 reports in the span of twenty minutes. I hadn't realized I was being so hard on you.

I try not to excite emotional people. Its unnecessarily cruel. I just thought you fellows had thicker skin. My mistake. I'm quite sorry if I upset you, Wintermute.

Are you going to be ok if I answer you? I want to make sure of that before I go into detail.

Cue Wintermute storming off in a huff, vowing never to post on The Phora until it is 'cleaned up' (one assumes, code for cleansed of Jews, communists and fellow-travellers).

The final word, as of the time of this posting, goes to Petr, a college student and convinced Creationist. There's an irony in there somewhere.
You can be quite a drama queen, Winnie. Does this mean that you are not going to answer to my posts on these threads either?


Our prediction of where this thread will go... well, it's not actually our prediction, just something someone observed a good ten years ago about how these moonbats argue:
17. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

Do they know how predictable they are?

Wednesday, June 21, 2006

Who Created The 'Hoax'? Inquiring Minds Would Like To Know

Over at The Phora, playground of demented young pseudo-intellectual racialist fruitloops the world over, one of the few sane people still in possession of their marbles asks a salient question of the assembled horde of 'Revisionists':

Who created the 'Holohoax' they like talking about so much?

Cue much earnest rumination and cud-chewing from the bovine herd of deniers, much passing of gas and very little enlightenment.

Since discussing these things with internet Nazis is like talking to a brick wall, I'll give you Sulla the Dictator's questions and responses and you can fill in the blanks. Believe me, it makes much more sense that way...

Read more...

Here is how Sulla began:
What shadowy group is responsible for creating this 'myth', and then KEEPING IT IN PLACE like Opus Dei in the Da Vinci Code, "Revisionists" of the Phora? I would like to discuss this specific issue, gentlemen. Now that you have a forum dedicated to this...business...we can afford to discuss these subjects individually rather than the whole topic in single threads.

Cue the first shambling jellymonster attack, and the rest is internet history, in both senses of the term:

I'm sure that there are those on this board who are 'on the fence', as it were, regarding the Holocaust. I'm also certain that THIS question, in particular, is one they would like answered. The massive conspiracy to INVENT a historical event and then catalogue it in such detail is unprecedented in human history. So I'm sure that they are very curious about the details of this. Certainly there must be an answer.
...
So the Jews, is that your answer?
...
So a Jewish reporter, the New York times, and the lawyers of 'several Jewish organizations' are responsible for fabricating the Holocaust, forcing the governments of Britain, France, the United States, the USSR, and the rest of Europe to falsify evidence, plant bodies, and fabricate documents?
And then this Jewish reporter, the New York Times, and the lawyers of 'several Jewish organizations' created a shadowy unit of enforcers to KEEP the governments of Britain, France, the United States, the USSR, and the rest of Europe in compliance with this fabrication, as well as penetrating academia to force them to go along with it as well?
Are you sure this is the best you can do?
BTW, this is NOT a thread about "The Holocaust didn't happen". This is a thread about who supposedly is responsible for 'making it up' and keeping it as "orthodox history". Don't tell me thats the best you can do.
...
This doesn't address the question that I'm sure 'everyone on the fence' about this issue would like answered. Who made it up?
The genocide of European Jews certainly existed in HISTORY before 1967, Tom, and had an influence in both American and European politics in the shadow it cast over the far right on both continents. This is not an issue for this thread, however.
I'm curious where this diabloical scheme was hatched, and who carried it out.
...
You would agree that what you just described has no bearing on the events happening between 1939 and 1947, correct?
...
Ok George, thats great. And in some other thread, I'm sure that will be an answer to SOME question. But that isn't the answer to mine, in this thread. I would like to know WHO fabricated the Holocaust, and who ordered them to do it, and how they went about it. I'd be happy to hear your theories on that. So far, we've got a Jewish reporter, a Beltway paper, and a dozen lawyers.
...
Its hardly a strawman, since I didn't direct the question at you. There are:
1) People who DO subscribe to a conspiracy theory
2) Such people on this board
3) posts by NeoNietzsche in this thread making the argument
Your statement implied that you had some objection. I would like to clarify the matter. You don't SEEM to have an objection, or atleast, you don't seem to be interesting in stating it. Therefore I assume you don't believe that there was any fabrication of the Holocaust. Correct?
...
Who are you, again?
...
Thats interesting. Now lets see if you can grasp this. The Holocaust is not a story we read in books of fiction or see on stage or watch in movies, 'a tale woven by storytellers or entertainers'. Its a topic taught in universities, studied by scholars, written about by historians, and serves as an example to governments.
If it happened (Which most people know it did), then thats all well and good. If it DID NOT HAPPEN, then its a bit beyond the realm of "Fiddler on the Roof", George. The purpose of this thread, then, is to identify those people who FABRICATED the 'exaggerations' that we're studying in academia, not the 'dramatics' of the Pianist. This isn't a critique of film making. Its a view at those parties responsible for taking what you suggest are exaggerations and then manufacturing evidence which support them.
...
Why would anyone forge a document if they believe an event happened? How does a Soviet and an American forge thousands of documents "on their own" which just happen to serve as evidence for the same exact crime, and indeed, indict specific people on specific charges?
...
Great. Thats fine. Thanks.
...
Well then, we come to the original question. Who ordered the fabrication of the evidence that they DID that very thing, in the way you dismissively describe, who fabricated it, and who continues to force others to lie about that being very real?
...
Why would they fabricate things about gas chambers? They could have said that 6 million were simply shot.
...
Who ordered these lies? Then who fabricated the evidence which supports them as fact? Then who forces historians to continue to regard them as fact?
...
Now THATS more like it! THATS what I've been expecting to see!
Now are the NWO and the Illuminati the same organization, and are they composed of Jews?
...
Ok. Well here's the problem with that, George. They're academics. An academic who is handed a piece of fake evidence doesn't say "I'm a Jew, I better support this fake evidence". He investigates it, because thats his job. Careers are built on that type of historical discovery. You've said that there is no conspiracy. So then you would have us believe that ON THEIR OWN, the academic community are passing on falsehoods and exaggerations.
...
Your theory seems to be that Jews (Who you seem to think are the only people allowed in academia) operate off of a Hive Mind, instead of a conspiracy like Illusion believes.
...
Well if you read about the Holocaust, you would know that its not a series of pictures of shoes.
But maybe you'd like to explain how a 'skilled storyteller' has to spin a German document saying they've killed such and such amount of Jews, or another that says their goal is to kill such and such amount of Jews.
That needs spinning? Or is it true?
...
You believe that there is a group of people who conspire to fabricate evidence and enforce its teaching, 60 years after the end of WWII?
...
Well yeah it does Tom, because we have evidence. And that evidence is either true, or its fabricated. Which is the point of this thread. That doesn't have anything to do with 'spinning' a thing. The Wanssee Protocol is either real or it isn't. It can't be 'spun'.
...
Ask who?
...
Wait a second, didn't you claim that there was no conspiracy to fabricate the Holocaust in the 1940s? Now there was, huh?
...
Actually Illusion, fabricating stamps is a bit different than fabricating millions of documents. A stamp, or a coin, or a dollar, or a document, are different areas of specialty. So no, I don't think people who forge stamps are capable of forging documents of any quality.
But ok, we finally have an answer as to who is actually doing the dirty work!
Those members of the Allies who were forging stamps were sent to the field to forge millions of records. Because if you can forge stamps, you can forge ANYTHING. Thats really interesting. I can't wait until we get to the illumanti.
...
Oh so its a mystery, to boot. Well done Dan Brown.
...
I don't know if you're just completely unfamiliar with the material and thus making an honest mistake, or if you're just deliberately lying. The West has never believed that the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre. The Western Allies REFUSED to allow that to be entered as a charge for the German warcriminals at Nuremberg. Two US investigations on the subject in 1944 (!) and several British intelligence reports confirmed that the Soviets were responsible. I invite you to QUOTE A HISTORIAN that isn't a Soviet citizen who says the Germans were responsible for Katyn.
In 1952 the US Congress had a public hearing on the subject, and concluded that the Soviets were responsible. So no, this was never 'debunked' since it was never part of the history of the Holocaust. German atrocities in the field, by the way, are not usually considered a part of the Holocaust. Otherwise we'd be throwing Malmedy into the mix, which we're not.
Furthermore, saying that a gas chamber is a reconstruction is not 'propaganda'. Also, no one was ever charged with steam chambers, and I'd like you to source reference to them in historical texts teaching about the Holocaust, and not just eye witness testimony from Polish partisans looking at gas chambers in a Polish winter and mistaking heat or gas for steam....as they watch from the forest.
Finally, you just disproved your case, even though you're absolutely wrong about everything you said. If this Orthodox Templar Illuminati New World Order imposed this 'story', why are these charges allowed to be 'overturned' (Even though they never existed)?
...
What are you babbling about? No serious person considers the Nazis innocent of the crimes they were charged with NOW.
...
Holocaust Deniers can't stand scrutiny, or people arguing with them. Thats why they belong in little echo chambers like "Revisionist Forum", where they moderate or ban anyone who argues with their stupid little lies.
...
Ok. I'll happily LIST the people who you say are responsible:
1. The House of Rothschild
2. The Middle Temple of London
3. The Illuminati, AKA, the Templars
I'm more than happy to nominate Illusion to be THE SOLE representative of Holocaust Denial on this board. Do any Holocaust deniers take exception to his theory of events?
...
What does this have to do with the Illuminati, the NWO, the Secret Jewish Overlords, or any other of the hobgoblins you and your little friends believe in?
...
Yes, I have one. In the middle of your bizzare rant, why didn't you take any time to discuss the issue of this thread? This thread isn't about your silly theories on the Holocaust. This is about who faked it. And it isn't about laughable (Insane) broad strokes, either, such as "The Jews" or "England". Its about hard tacks. Organizations or government officials who ordered it, individuals or units who forged documents, and then organizations, individuals, or units which are forcing people to teach it now.
I've noticed that you folks seem utterly incapable of answering these questions, with the exception of Illusion, who fingers the Illuminati.
...
Can you be more specific?
...
So Dan, do you buy into either of our two theories for who 'invented' the Holocaust? So far its the Illuminati, the Templars, and the Rothschilds versus the New York times and a dozen Jewish lawyers. Do you subscribe to either of these theories or do you have your own?
...
I'm sorry, I just can't discuss this illuminati/templar/freemason business. I just can't take it seriously. So we'll just accept that as a theory for the reader to consider.


N.B. it took 11 'revisionists' and 'sceptics' to reach this conclusion. This, after one accuses the entirety of academic of possessing a Hive Mind...

If you really insist on wading through the conspiracy theories, click through to read the thread in full).

Monday, June 05, 2006

This watchblogging lark, it's clearly catching

Never let it be said that we are alone in taking an interest in the bizarre little world of Holocaust Denial. Nor that we are the only ones to take part in the spectator-sport of watchblogging, a term that if it doesn't already exist, should definitely be invented. Let's see what Google has to say: okay, 251 hits, people are claiming they invented it first, but it came to me entirely independently. Honest. Who the hell cares anyhow?

Ahem. Anyway... Just when you thought the dust had settled from the discovery of our mirror-blog CODOH Watch, along comes
Xcalibur and takes watchblogging to a new level: RODOH Watch.

As he writes in his opening post:
RODOH stands for Real Open Debate of the Holocaust(*). Yes, there are some folks out there in internetland who don't believe in Nazi gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen killings and such-like. The site's owner is an amiable Holocaust denier from Arizona called Scott Smith. He would probably prefer to be thought of as a "Revisionist". Scott doesn't like Nazi gas chambers unless they were used for fumigation puposes. No homicidal gas chambers in Scott's world. You might be tempted to ask at this point, "Hey Xcalibur, is Scott an anti-semite"? Hmm. More on that at some future date. Scott does like free speech, however. And so he is a champion of David Irving, Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolph and other Holocaust Deniers who have run afoul of the laws of distant lands which prohibit such denial. I agree with Scott on this point but not necessarily for the same reasons. Anyway, he runs RODOH as a free speech forum.

Free Speech. Interesting concept that. A value to be held dear. Yet the practicalities of it are often not so lofty as the notion. This is the essence of RODOH's problem: How does one maintain a free speech forum on the internet and yet deal with all the mental patients, day-dreamers, idiots, cranks, fucktards, trolls, morons, anti-semites, fools, and garden-variety motherfuckers who make up a slice of the human population who would really be better off exiled to their own island? Madagascar, anyone? Since it is RODOH's problem, it is Scott's problem. And up 'til very recently he hasn't dealt with it. Last week he has begun to take baby-steps toward moderating the boards. Unfortunately Scott decided to announce long ago that he would never ban anyone from the boards on a permanent basis. Sounds good, for a free speech forum. On the other hand, Scott painted himself into a corner with this announcement. This is good news for Scott's nemesis, Jonnie A. Hargis, aka "Hannover" of the CODOH forum. Jonnie doesn't like free speech. In fact, he's a racist, fascist cunt and runs his forum accordingly. And he'd love to see Scott forced into banning someone permanently from RODOH. So Scott is boxed: He forgot that one of the basic rules of strategy is that you never announce to your opponent what you "never" intend doing.

Indeed. We look forward to seeing what Xcalibur makes of 'the antics of the mental patients inhabiting the RODOH forum', and who he diagnoses as deranged. Who will feel his barbs? Stay tuned to find out. Now all that remains is for Xcalibur and us to blogroll each other and the incestuous circle will be complete....
Wider Two Column Modification courtesy of The Blogger Guide / HCS