Learn English, "Claudia"!

At the Cesspit we see yet another ignorant neo-Nazi posing as an expert. It is a German denier "ClaudiaRothenbach" (don't assume that it is a female).

"She" writes:

In his affidavit for the trial of Irving against Deborah Lipstadt Dr. Green, the chemist, cites Mazal. As Green writes in a footnote:

Mr. Mazal is the President of the Holocaust History Project and has conducted onsite forensic investigations of Auschwitz.

Now let us read what Mr. Mazal writes:

As may be observed in the eight photographs above, penetration of Prussian Blue into either the wall material inside of the building, or the bricks on the exterior, is minimal, corroborating previous reports. It is possible that very porous materials such as plaster might permit a slightly greater penetration of the stain, but not to the degree claimed, without proof, by Holocaust deniers.

This guy (he is OBE *) tells us that Prussian Blue only moves minimal in wall material. And Dr. Green (chemist and expert) cites Mazal without commenting this bullshit.

Prussian Blue is solid and one of least soluble substances in the universe. So it does not move at all - least at all in wall material.

"Holocaust deniers" know that ant they won't prove that "very porous materials such as plaster might permit a slightly greater penetration of the stain". Never.

I ask again: Where did brainless Green purchase his "Dr. of Chemistry"?

Now, to every person who has both a basic knowledge of English and a brain, it is clear that Mr. Mazal is talking about the depth of the stain. Nowhere he wrote or implied that Prussian Blue somehow "moved".

So is "revisionism" a product of stupidity coupled with the language barrier?

Anyway, down the thread the Cesspit pond life claims that Mr. Mazal is "less than honest" for not accepting an unproven denier claim that HCN can somehow penetrate the wall. Of course, as usual, deniers ignore Mr. Mazal's observations on Prussian Blue in Auschwitz:

There is an as-yet unsolved mystery of how Prussian Blue made its way through apparently solid brick walls leaving it's tell-tale blue stains on the exterior of both bath and delousing chambers in BIa and BIb in Birkenau.

In a still unpublished report, Mr. Mazal gives more details about this mystery. Namely: how did HCN get from the delousing chamber and across several meters onto the inner and even outer walls? For example, the second photo of Germar Rudolf in that thread was not taken in a gas chamber. This wall is separated from the gas-tight door of the delousing chamber by 5.2 meters of space and (partially) by walls of a small room (the walls which don't exhibit Prussian blue staining, by the way). How did that happen? We don't know, but HCN-soaked mattresses might be the answer. Deniers surely have not offered any alternative explanation. So why do the Cesspit nitwits scoff at Mr. Mazal's explanation, without offering any of their own?

Because they are dishonest.

PS: liar "Claudia" (see the comments) doesn't stop. E.g. "she" writes:

What this "expert" wants to tell us is that "penetration" has nothing to do with "move".

Of course, I never wrote such a thing.

PPS: And some pond scum projects:

I already got the impression those Holocaustians like to play with words. This way they can avoid dealing with hard facts. They live in their own world and get gullible others into believing in it.

Of course, it is "Claudia" who plays semantic games, all the while knowing that Mr. Mazal wrote nothing about "moving" Prussian Blue. And of course it is deniers who won't address the point raised above.

Why deniers are generally despised

Here's why.

Doesn't look like a girl to me.

This has been posted at the Stormfront by one of the most demented deniers out there, who goes under names "The_Skunk" and "Mark_Twain" at the Cesspit and elsewhere.

Meet Joe Bellinger

An author Joseph Bellinger is hailed at the Cesspit for writing an allegedly serious research book about Himmler's death. Interestingly, Jonnie "Pinky Smooth" Hargis quotes a passage from Bellinger that doesn't show his writing skills in a favorable light:

Once upon a time there were three targets selected for assassination. There was the 'BIG H' –Hitler, the 'little H' – Himmler, and the 'littler H' – Heydrich, as dubbed by England's SOE, and then, there was the 'littlest h' – Höss.

The first three needed to be put out of the way and the 'littlest h' was reserved as a 'defence' witness for Kaltenbrunner, as well as for other purposes. Of course Kaltenbrunner – 'little K' – also was in no position to speak for 'little H’ – Himmler, which is of course exactly why he was chosen.

Ugh. Did you manage to read through this babble? Imagine a whole book written in this style.

Anyway, Bellinger did manage to publish a German version of his book, which is strange, considering that he is a vulgar Holocaust denier. He's been known on Usenet by many names, such as fafner13, debunks, jbelling, rblackmore. Quick search establishes that Bellinger clearly shows a Stormfront-like mentality, mindlessly parrotting antisemitic memes, and posting antisemitic ditties. Such is yet another "revisionist" hero. And deniers really expect to be taken seriously?

Someone should get a brain

Orac says almost all there is to say about LaShawn Barber's attempted redefinition of neo-Nazi scum known as Prussian Blue as a mere "white pride" group. Of course, it is painfully obvious what they're up to, when their official site links to the denier screed Dissecting the Holocaust (lookie here or here), edited by Germar Rudolf, known primarily for pushing ... "Prussian Blue" arguments; or when we know that their mommy is a columnist for one of the largest neo-Nazi websites out there. Interestingly, it's not the first time these "bad" racists are mistaken for... how to say it... "good" racists.

"polardude" (aka "Lurkerthe") pwns CODOH

Someone going under nickname "polardude" (he is known as "Lurkerthe" at RODOH, "Colonel Blandish" at alt.revisionism, and, probably, by other names) writes at CODOH:

A quick background on this image (there also a few others) in response to interest of where they came from (well, actually there has been no such interest but anyway).

I obtained them from an amateur historian Sergey Romanov in late 2004. I had infiltrated a holocau$t online community using a false identity. Sergey was passing around some of these images from early soviet propaganda archives he had access to. He was openly boasting about how bad some of the early soviet agitprop was and how lazy and incompetent revisionists were for not hunting it down and exposing them. He said, I think he is correct, that in this shot and others not only is it clear that the chimney has just finished being built, but there aren't even any ovens installed yet!!

I wonder if Mr Romanov is feeling so pleased and cocky now?

Each (yes, each) claim here is a lie, of course, and "polardude" is a well-known troll, whose shtick is denial of existence of crematoria in Nazi camps (incl. Auschwitz, Dachau and Sachsenhausen). I don't know whether it is a mentally ill person, or just someone with too much free time on his hands.

Anyway, what is interesting is how other deniers quickly swallowed his claims. But then, CODOH crowd has always consisted mostly of gullible fools, and some outright liars. And, as we know, "revisionist" forgers are nothing new - Myroslaw Dragan, Emil Lachout, "Gregory Douglas", etc.

So in this case, thanks to a liar "polardude", gullibility of some CODOH pond life has been exposed once again.

Who Created The 'Hoax'? Inquiring Minds Are Still None The Wiser

Continuing yesterday's experiment with tuning out the rantings of internet Nazis, here's the second and hopefully final part of an increasingly hilarious attempt to persuade a raggle-taggle group of racialists, Holocaust deniers and Holocaust sceptics at The Phora to name the author of the alleged 'Hoax'.

As our good friend Xcalibur of the valiant RODOH Watch found out to his cost when he actually read through the original thread, and complained about in the comments below, there's much to be said for this hearing-one-side-of-a-telephone-conversation approach. Above all, you don't have to listen to the deniers ranting, rambling and drooling. Oh, the things we spare you, dear readers...

With that, over to the action.

Read more...


After a hard day's work, Sulla the Dictator returns circa 7pm Californian time to find that the shambling jelly monsters have been ululating in his absence. But first, a bit of thread housekeeping.

I ignored your post because you repeated yourself. You didn't seem to understand my reply. When there are documents and evidence which support 'exaggerations', then either they ARE NOT exaggerations or they have been fabricated (the evidence). This thread isn't about how much of the Holocaust you believe in, its about who is doing the actual leg work of fabricating evidence in your people's world. If you don't think that happened, then I don't see what your point is here.

This done, it's time for a new angle on the question. Might the Evil Commies have hoaxed the Hoax? Let's find out...

Well it looks like the Illuminati, the Templars and the New York Times are the best we can come up with at the moment, so I have another question that might get a more clear response.

The shadows of the Cold War were already being cast over Europe in late 1945 and 1946. Why would the Soviets support a charade about this genocide of European Jews in 1946? The Soviets were FAR less comitted to any consistant theme or government message to its own people than the West was, since there were really no consequences for lying to its public. The Soviets also had an interest in delegitimizing the West German regime, and beyond that the victorious leaders of both England and the United States. What better way to do that than expose this massive conspiracy to frame the German people?

And why would this conspiracy to cover up the Holocaust continue from one General Secretary to the next? Revolving members of the party apparatus had an interest in 'sweeping away' the mistakes of the last, 'exposing lies and crimes'. Why would Nikita Khrushchev reveal the atrocities of Joseph Stalin, and NOT his conspiracy to frame the West German workers who the Soviets were interested in swaying?

Why would the Soviets engage in a pro-Jewish conspiracy while they were arming the states of the Arab league, or considering military intervention against Israel in 1967?

Why would the Soviets be training members of the PLO while hiding this bombshell?

Of course, there's always the Illuminati. The Soviets need to be concerned with their wrath. (rofl) But why wouldn't the Soviets LEAK this information to someone else? There were plenty of neutral powers, such as the Indians, or the Swiss, or the South Africans. Why wouldn't the Soviet educational system allow an exchange program of academics to 'stumble across' this evidence? Why wouldn't the Soviets leak this information to the Egyptians? We scoff at these Arab Holocaust deniers because they're just angrier versions of ours. But if they had documents in hand, that would be a different story.

Does this prod more of a response from the deniers? No, of course not. The shambling jellymonsters want to talk about their pre-programmed debating 'points' instead:

This is an academic claim? Did you ever consider how....childish....it is to suggest that illustrative metaphor be interpreted as literal fact? Do you believe that there were 10,000 tribes of Gaul? Or that Pickett's Charge was resulted in a literal bath of blood?

And again, you don't seem to understand the point of this post. The levels of blood seeping out of the ground in a Nazi killing field is not relevant. That isn't "the Holocaust". Thats a testament to the horror of the aftermath of such butchery.

What you don't seem to realize, however, is that there is PLENTY of evidence for the slaughter at Babi Yar. This is, in fact, one of the Eastern front actions that I don't think even Holocaust deniers on this board would say didn't happen.

The action was done by Sonderkommando 4a. The report reads as follows:
"Berlin, October 2, 1941
Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service
48 copies (36th copy)
OPERATIONAL SITUATION REPORT USSR No.101
Einsatzgruppe C, Location: Kiev
Sonderkommando 4a in collaboration with Einsatzgruppe HQ and two Kommandos of police regiment South, executed 33,771 Jews in Kiev on September 29 and 30, 1941.
Einsatzgruppe D, Location: Nikolayev
The Kommandos continued the liberation of the area from Jews and Communist elements. In the period covered by the report, the towns of Nikolayev and Kherson in particular were freed of Jews. Remaining officials there were appropriately treated. From September 16 to 30, 22,467 Jews and Communists were executed. Total number 35,782. Investigations again show that the high Communist officials everywhere have fled to safety. On the whole, leading partisans or leaders of sabotage detachments have been seized."

I mean, to deny this is simply ridiculous. But if you're going to do it, the purpose of this thread is to identify who made it up, who ordered it to be made up, and who continues to force people to believe it.

Thats not a claim that historians have ever made. I believe that was in an editorial written by some fellow who was at Buchenwald. How is that at all relevant?

This is a ridiculous way to talk about history. Were we to apply it, we would have to stop believing in half of the battles that took place in the Classical world, as someone would say that he was 'imbued with the strength of Mars'.

Identify it. I no longer deal with generalities.

Well, lets start with a quesiton. How many books have you read on the Holocaust?

No reply. Next up, the increasingly obnoxious Wintermute, spewing venom, runs charging at Sulla and impales himself on the usual contradictions.

Except that you ignored specific cited examples. Thats not surprising, indeed its par for course with people like you. To make the above statement you quite simply must ignore the flood of Soviet revisions, retractions, and policy shifts as well as admissions, inquiries, and falsehoods. But thats fine. Ignoring facts is what you do. Of course, its quite possible you never learned them.

One of the things that seems so convenient for people like you is that since you don't believe in "Orthodox" history, you never have to bother to learn it. Which allows for all your website fiction. Much easier to browse, and how fortunate! It conforms with your pre-existing biases!

Thats how someone like you can come here and say "The Soviets had to be concerned with a loss of legitimacy" or "the Soviets were worried about public lies". Which is utter rubbish. The Soviet leadership could care less about the 'public reaction' to what it did. You would know that if you bothered to actually learn about the USSR.

"Nothing stretched the creative powers of the politruks more than the job of explaining the news. Looking at Soviet foreign policy in the last few months of peace, one almost feels sorry for them. Most troops were not sophisticated men, and many could not reas a paper for themselves, but even a semiliterate drunk would have noticed a curious change of police in 1939. On 23 August the Soviet foreign minister, Vyacheslav Molotov, signed a non-aggression pact with Nazi Germany.
Red Army men had been forced to sit through sermons on the threat of Fascism for a decade. Now, suddenly, they were told that the Germans had become their allies. On Stalin's sixtieth birthday in December 1939, the telegrams of congratulation included one from Adolf Hitler. The Fuehrer included his best wishes "for the happy future of the friendly people of the Soviet Union:.
Neither civilians nor troops knew what to think about the news of the pact. When their turn came to explain it, political staff were forced to draw upon the revolutionary rhetoric of historic progress. It was always possible to talk of international proletarian solidarity, and the German working class held a special place in Soviet imaginations, not least because its industry was so admired. But the idea of a treaty with Hitler could only be a shock. Cadets in one staff college thought the story was a spoof. Elsewhere, a politruk simply gave up when someone asked him if the next war would be an imperialist one. "There's no point," he answered, "in counting imperialist wars...When the war's over, a party congress will convene, and they'll tell us what type of war it was"."
Ivan's War, Catherine Merridale, Page 72

And thats just one example of a Soviet leadership indifferent to how policy related to public opinion. Those details were left to the political officers and party vizhods spread across the USSR.

No one would have been hurt more than the West by the revelation that the Holocaust was a fraud. The Soviets were the most anti-semitic power on Earth after the end of WWII, and in the Cold War era their allies were composed of minor anti-semitic powers. There is no motive for hiding this 'conspiracy', especially as Israel fell more and more under the American sphere of influence. Of course, in your 'reply' (Which was not a response) you ignored all but 4 lines of my post. I suppose that you do a lot better when you're simply talking to yourself.

The Russians were under no obligation to invent the issue in the first place. And moreover, they could have BLAMED the West for the forging of documents.

Moreover, this Illuminati Holocaust conspiracy could have been exposed by Khruschev when he brought Stalin's other dealings to light. Why would he specifically HIDE this event? There's no reason he would, of course, which is another glaring whole in this Soviet-Illuminati connection.

So then the Soviets didn't lose more than 13 million soldiers and civilians in the war? Wintermute might be the only Holocaust denier LEFT who denies EASTERN atrocities as well as concentration camps!

As I've already told you, the Soviets were more than willing to blame the West for fabrications, tricks, and academic traps.

Yeah, thats really funny.

But please, be more of a Nazi cheerleader. It really goes over well when reading it. It does suit you though. Its 'funny' how the death camps were in the East, and its 'funny' how the war criminals ran West.

But since you have claimed that its all just a bunch of lies, then why would the 'war criminals' be in the West, since the Soviets could throw anyone in a uniform and claim he was the group leader for a death squad which never existed?

Oh, thats right. Wintermute SELECTIVELY believes in Soviet academic and historic integrity.

Well you see, thats just the thing. The Russians allowed unprecedented access to the Soviet archives throughout the 1990s. I must have missed the revelations about the Great Holocaust Code, starring Tom Hanks.

ROFLMAO This is Wintermute using the PC nutter's approach to what Illusion already told us: The Illuminati, the Templars, Freemasons, and Rothschilds. Different names for the same thing.

I would ask the 'fence sitter' to examine his experience of the world. Consider what you've read of history, economics, and politics. Is this how the world works? Shadowy smoke filled rooms inventing historical events, plotting against nations, conspiring against you?

We used to give people psychiatric care for paranoia. Now, with the Internet, they're free to spew their sickness all over our computer screens. Its all cute at first, and weird. But after a while, it just becomes boring.

Let me guess: You have absolutely no evidence of this whatsoever.

Start a thread about Barbarossa and I'll happily thrash you on that issue as well. You've already taken this thread off topic enough. We won't be discussing the "defensive barbarossa operation" here.

If there are 'forged Holocaust documents' in that book, share them. Then identify what Western history books they have been used in. I suspect that there are not, otherwise I wouldn't have to ask you for them.

Evidence?

Evidence?

Evidence?

Evidence?

The reader is again invited to evaluate. Here we have a rather vulgar bigot in wintermute (Notice the unnecessary 'kike' statement, for shock value and to 'prove' himself to his fellow anti-smites. He's 'one of them'), who alternately suggests that the Soviets were the greatest evil in human history and 'alright guys, after all is said and done'. They 'took it easy' on the East Germans, they 'gave the major part of access' (?) to a German historian. Barbarossa saved the world.....but things wern't that bad after the Germans LOST that campaign.

This is an inconsistant worldview. Why though? The answer is quite clear. They have no answers to the question. They don't know WHY the Soviets would do this thing they claim they did, they just 'believe' they did it. They don't know WHO did it, they just 'believe' it was done.

They aren't interested in learning things, or achieving accurate conclusions. No crimes in history meet the burden of proof Holocaust deniers require. Wintermute believes in mass rapes and murders when the Soviets occupied Germany. Why though? There is less evidence of that than there is for the Holocaust. Virtually ALL of those claims are from 'eye witness testimony' by Germans, who have the same anti-Soviet motivation to lie that the Holocaust deniers claim Jewish victims of the Holocaust did.

Holocaust deniers are rabid believers in Stalinist atrocities. Why though? The estimates of those deaths vary by MILLIONS, not hundreds of thousands like the Holocaust. And yet while Holocaust deniers claim that such a variance of estimates means the thing never happened, they'll simper and whine about "Allied atrocities" ala gulags until you give them a pacifier.

But you have claimed that the Soviets were responsible for most of the fabricating. Why would the Soviets fabricate evidence to indict a subject population and then not use that? Why would the Soviets indict a West German population they were trying to seduce?

Wintermute is pretty much making this up as he goes along, folks, so be patient with him. Lets take stock of where he's 'led' us. The Soviets were planning on invading Europe, and the Germans bravely invaded them first! They saved Europe! But....then they lost the war, and as the Soviets advanced they fabricated evidence of the Holocaust (Simultaneously, the Western Allies were doing the same thing).

Then, they occupied Germany, and absolved the people they had framed of any responsibility for these atrocities they fabricated. Then they launched an anti-semitic purge, started arming the Arab neighbors of Israel, and considered launching an airborne and amphibious invasion of Israel. Israel, the nation they had conspired with the Rothschilds (I'm sorry, the "World Bank") to create.

They began to train and arm PLO terrorists while they secretly held the documents ordering the fabrication of the Holocaust.

Then, the Soviet Union fell apart. And as new Russians took the jobs of Soviet party hacks, they found these documents and independantly decided to hide them from academic view at the same time they cleverly allowed unprecedented acces to old Soviet archives. The Russians were willing to allow Westerners to look at documents where Stalin is signing off on executions, but were utterly unwilling to allow the documents ordering the forging of documents to be seen.

I assume that these documents were sent to the Vatican for safe keeping, right next to the secret birth certificate for Mary's love baby with Christ.

Troll #2 returns, still whining about Elie Wiesel:

Thats really interesting George, and thanks for your input. I notice, however, that you go on to say alternately:....

Of course, and if you reference my previous post, you'll see that one of my points is that to question some claims made about the 'Holocaust' is not to question all such claims.

Which, I guess, leads me to believe that you are 'so wise' that you didn't know that this 'geysers of blood' business refers to Babi Yar. So when I told you about Babi Yar, I was referring to this specific event. So your 'revision' is the idiotic point that a 'geyser of blood' didn't happen (Which is illustrative language), but you don't deny that Babi Yar happened. Thats really interesting. How is the CONSEQUENCE of the slaughter as relayed in illustrative langauge supposed to be 'some claim' about the Holocaust thats relevant to the actual Holocaust? The murder of people at Babi Yar is whats relevant. The height of blood squirting out of the ground where they're buried is not relevant.

By the way, you didn't answer the question. How many books on the Holocaust have you read?

The rest of your post is trolling, so I'll ignore it.

George, is your trolling due to the fact that you have nothing to contribute, but need to have my attention?

Except that the troll ignored the fact that I was asking for evidence:
"b.) Other items often held up as pieces of 'evidence' are not necessarily fabrications, but the interpretation of their significance as 'evidence' is fundamentally flawed, predicated as it is on the inherent biases and preexisting beliefs of the investigators."
Identify it. I no longer deal with generalities
Meaning: "Other items" and "pieces of evidence" and "interpretations". How am I supposed to deal with "Other items", unnamed?

Its strange how off topic this thread needs to go. Why can't we get some answers to the two basic questions? Is this the best you people can do?

Is your lack of knowledge about the Holocaust and your inability to answer a few simple questions the reason you want to talk about WMD and the war in Iraq?

Is that how this works?

This topic isn't about racial matters. Its about facts regarding history. George referred to some vague, nebulous 'facts' in dispute. I asked for specifics, because I can't rebutt 'evidence' that he won't share.

Still waiting, BTW.

You noticed that it had been changed to Jews (By people unable to answer questions), which is why those posts have been moved to the Race forum. Under the title of "The Jews".

Back to Wintermute, who tries the ol' Burden-of-Proof Table Tennis tactic, and gets the ball thwacked back onto his side of the net.

Can anyone see an actual reply to my post in Wintermute's response?

We'll wait and see. I doubt we'll be hearing you address any substantial portion of the post. I can see how replying like this appeals to you. How about we try this: Why don't you prove to us that the US State Department, the World Bank, and the Harvard Economics Department equals Jewry. And why don't you prove that somewhere else than this thread, which isn't about your Jew fetish?

It must be nice to have a cheering section of preinstalled idiots who can keep applauding your tripe, Wintermute. It allows you to keep your illusions about how you're doing intact. Fortunately, I don't care about your Neo-Nazi cheering squad. Your inability to answer simple questions has been shown again and again. Why would you expect me to be familiar with the details of your particular lunacy regarding conspiracies to destroy Aryan Russia?

"I am a despicable troll, and I'm sorry for willfully misrepresenting your words"
You're forgiven. Maybe you're not as despicable a troll as you appear.

"This is false.
Please answer the question as asked above: do you continue to maintain that my account of the IMF/Harvard/the Clinton Administration is tantamount to Illuminism, Templarism, and the like?
It would seem you are the one here who does not wish to answer questions.
Wintermute"
I'm not going to discuss the IMF/World Bank/Harvard economics department/Clinton State Department/Soros conspiracy absent its relevance in to this thread. If you can relate it to the Holocaust, we'll discuss it. If not, take it elsewhere. Preferably, to the swamp hut.

After which, the thread degenerates into whines, complaints and insults as the shambling jellymonsters (since reduced to two in number from the original 11) realised they have been pwn3d, again.

Well, I guess thats it. I'm sorry I was hard on you, Wintermute. After your spamming of reported posts, I've come to realize that I've deeply wounded you. You and George Clark both. Terrible thing. Between my harshness and my apparent 'moderator abuse', maybe I should just let you folks have this forum as an echo chamber.

Obviously Holocaust Deniers can't handle scrutiny.

Please stop trolling, George Rogers Clark. You've shown through your excessive neg repping, complaining about recieving negative reputation, and reported posts that you have a great deal of concern for the civility of the forum. If you have anything to add to the topic, please contribute. If you do not, please save it for the lounge.

Report the post, Dan, or start a thread in the Help Desk.

Backing away from my claims? Not at all. Everything I said stands, unassailed, since you ignored the entire post. Its just that it means a great deal to you. Enough, obviously, for you to suggest that just by replying to you I'm violating my job as a moderator. You made something like 3 or 4 reports in the span of twenty minutes. I hadn't realized I was being so hard on you.

I try not to excite emotional people. Its unnecessarily cruel. I just thought you fellows had thicker skin. My mistake. I'm quite sorry if I upset you, Wintermute.

Are you going to be ok if I answer you? I want to make sure of that before I go into detail.

Cue Wintermute storming off in a huff, vowing never to post on The Phora until it is 'cleaned up' (one assumes, code for cleansed of Jews, communists and fellow-travellers).

The final word, as of the time of this posting, goes to Petr, a college student and convinced Creationist. There's an irony in there somewhere.

You can be quite a drama queen, Winnie. Does this mean that you are not going to answer to my posts on these threads either?

Our prediction of where this thread will go... well, it's not actually our prediction, just something someone observed a good ten years ago about how these moonbats argue:

17. Although all of your arguments will be consistently blown to smithereens, just wait a few days or weeks and then re-post them.

Do they know how predictable they are?

Who Created The 'Hoax'? Inquiring Minds Would Like To Know

Over at The Phora, playground of demented young pseudo-intellectual racialist fruitloops the world over, one of the few sane people still in possession of their marbles asks a salient question of the assembled horde of 'Revisionists':

Who created the 'Holohoax' they like talking about so much?

Cue much earnest rumination and cud-chewing from the bovine herd of deniers, much passing of gas and very little enlightenment.

Since discussing these things with internet Nazis is like talking to a brick wall, I'll give you Sulla the Dictator's questions and responses and you can fill in the blanks. Believe me, it makes much more sense that way...

Read more...

Here is how Sulla began:

What shadowy group is responsible for creating this 'myth', and then KEEPING IT IN PLACE like Opus Dei in the Da Vinci Code, "Revisionists" of the Phora? I would like to discuss this specific issue, gentlemen. Now that you have a forum dedicated to this...business...we can afford to discuss these subjects individually rather than the whole topic in single threads.

Cue the first shambling jellymonster attack, and the rest is internet history, in both senses of the term:

I'm sure that there are those on this board who are 'on the fence', as it were, regarding the Holocaust. I'm also certain that THIS question, in particular, is one they would like answered. The massive conspiracy to INVENT a historical event and then catalogue it in such detail is unprecedented in human history. So I'm sure that they are very curious about the details of this. Certainly there must be an answer.
...
So the Jews, is that your answer?
...
So a Jewish reporter, the New York times, and the lawyers of 'several Jewish organizations' are responsible for fabricating the Holocaust, forcing the governments of Britain, France, the United States, the USSR, and the rest of Europe to falsify evidence, plant bodies, and fabricate documents?
And then this Jewish reporter, the New York Times, and the lawyers of 'several Jewish organizations' created a shadowy unit of enforcers to KEEP the governments of Britain, France, the United States, the USSR, and the rest of Europe in compliance with this fabrication, as well as penetrating academia to force them to go along with it as well?
Are you sure this is the best you can do?
BTW, this is NOT a thread about "The Holocaust didn't happen". This is a thread about who supposedly is responsible for 'making it up' and keeping it as "orthodox history". Don't tell me thats the best you can do.
...
This doesn't address the question that I'm sure 'everyone on the fence' about this issue would like answered. Who made it up?
The genocide of European Jews certainly existed in HISTORY before 1967, Tom, and had an influence in both American and European politics in the shadow it cast over the far right on both continents. This is not an issue for this thread, however.
I'm curious where this diabloical scheme was hatched, and who carried it out.
...
You would agree that what you just described has no bearing on the events happening between 1939 and 1947, correct?
...
Ok George, thats great. And in some other thread, I'm sure that will be an answer to SOME question. But that isn't the answer to mine, in this thread. I would like to know WHO fabricated the Holocaust, and who ordered them to do it, and how they went about it. I'd be happy to hear your theories on that. So far, we've got a Jewish reporter, a Beltway paper, and a dozen lawyers.
...
Its hardly a strawman, since I didn't direct the question at you. There are:
1) People who DO subscribe to a conspiracy theory
2) Such people on this board
3) posts by NeoNietzsche in this thread making the argument
Your statement implied that you had some objection. I would like to clarify the matter. You don't SEEM to have an objection, or atleast, you don't seem to be interesting in stating it. Therefore I assume you don't believe that there was any fabrication of the Holocaust. Correct?
...
Who are you, again?
...
Thats interesting. Now lets see if you can grasp this. The Holocaust is not a story we read in books of fiction or see on stage or watch in movies, 'a tale woven by storytellers or entertainers'. Its a topic taught in universities, studied by scholars, written about by historians, and serves as an example to governments.
If it happened (Which most people know it did), then thats all well and good. If it DID NOT HAPPEN, then its a bit beyond the realm of "Fiddler on the Roof", George. The purpose of this thread, then, is to identify those people who FABRICATED the 'exaggerations' that we're studying in academia, not the 'dramatics' of the Pianist. This isn't a critique of film making. Its a view at those parties responsible for taking what you suggest are exaggerations and then manufacturing evidence which support them.
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Why would anyone forge a document if they believe an event happened? How does a Soviet and an American forge thousands of documents "on their own" which just happen to serve as evidence for the same exact crime, and indeed, indict specific people on specific charges?
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Great. Thats fine. Thanks.
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Well then, we come to the original question. Who ordered the fabrication of the evidence that they DID that very thing, in the way you dismissively describe, who fabricated it, and who continues to force others to lie about that being very real?
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Why would they fabricate things about gas chambers? They could have said that 6 million were simply shot.
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Who ordered these lies? Then who fabricated the evidence which supports them as fact? Then who forces historians to continue to regard them as fact?
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Now THATS more like it! THATS what I've been expecting to see!
Now are the NWO and the Illuminati the same organization, and are they composed of Jews?
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Ok. Well here's the problem with that, George. They're academics. An academic who is handed a piece of fake evidence doesn't say "I'm a Jew, I better support this fake evidence". He investigates it, because thats his job. Careers are built on that type of historical discovery. You've said that there is no conspiracy. So then you would have us believe that ON THEIR OWN, the academic community are passing on falsehoods and exaggerations.
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Your theory seems to be that Jews (Who you seem to think are the only people allowed in academia) operate off of a Hive Mind, instead of a conspiracy like Illusion believes.
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Well if you read about the Holocaust, you would know that its not a series of pictures of shoes.
But maybe you'd like to explain how a 'skilled storyteller' has to spin a German document saying they've killed such and such amount of Jews, or another that says their goal is to kill such and such amount of Jews.
That needs spinning? Or is it true?
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You believe that there is a group of people who conspire to fabricate evidence and enforce its teaching, 60 years after the end of WWII?
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Well yeah it does Tom, because we have evidence. And that evidence is either true, or its fabricated. Which is the point of this thread. That doesn't have anything to do with 'spinning' a thing. The Wanssee Protocol is either real or it isn't. It can't be 'spun'.
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Ask who?
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Wait a second, didn't you claim that there was no conspiracy to fabricate the Holocaust in the 1940s? Now there was, huh?
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Actually Illusion, fabricating stamps is a bit different than fabricating millions of documents. A stamp, or a coin, or a dollar, or a document, are different areas of specialty. So no, I don't think people who forge stamps are capable of forging documents of any quality.
But ok, we finally have an answer as to who is actually doing the dirty work!
Those members of the Allies who were forging stamps were sent to the field to forge millions of records. Because if you can forge stamps, you can forge ANYTHING. Thats really interesting. I can't wait until we get to the illumanti.
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Oh so its a mystery, to boot. Well done Dan Brown.
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I don't know if you're just completely unfamiliar with the material and thus making an honest mistake, or if you're just deliberately lying. The West has never believed that the Germans were responsible for the Katyn massacre. The Western Allies REFUSED to allow that to be entered as a charge for the German warcriminals at Nuremberg. Two US investigations on the subject in 1944 (!) and several British intelligence reports confirmed that the Soviets were responsible. I invite you to QUOTE A HISTORIAN that isn't a Soviet citizen who says the Germans were responsible for Katyn.
In 1952 the US Congress had a public hearing on the subject, and concluded that the Soviets were responsible. So no, this was never 'debunked' since it was never part of the history of the Holocaust. German atrocities in the field, by the way, are not usually considered a part of the Holocaust. Otherwise we'd be throwing Malmedy into the mix, which we're not.
Furthermore, saying that a gas chamber is a reconstruction is not 'propaganda'. Also, no one was ever charged with steam chambers, and I'd like you to source reference to them in historical texts teaching about the Holocaust, and not just eye witness testimony from Polish partisans looking at gas chambers in a Polish winter and mistaking heat or gas for steam....as they watch from the forest.
Finally, you just disproved your case, even though you're absolutely wrong about everything you said. If this Orthodox Templar Illuminati New World Order imposed this 'story', why are these charges allowed to be 'overturned' (Even though they never existed)?
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What are you babbling about? No serious person considers the Nazis innocent of the crimes they were charged with NOW.
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Holocaust Deniers can't stand scrutiny, or people arguing with them. Thats why they belong in little echo chambers like "Revisionist Forum", where they moderate or ban anyone who argues with their stupid little lies.
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Ok. I'll happily LIST the people who you say are responsible:
1. The House of Rothschild
2. The Middle Temple of London
3. The Illuminati, AKA, the Templars
I'm more than happy to nominate Illusion to be THE SOLE representative of Holocaust Denial on this board. Do any Holocaust deniers take exception to his theory of events?
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What does this have to do with the Illuminati, the NWO, the Secret Jewish Overlords, or any other of the hobgoblins you and your little friends believe in?
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Yes, I have one. In the middle of your bizzare rant, why didn't you take any time to discuss the issue of this thread? This thread isn't about your silly theories on the Holocaust. This is about who faked it. And it isn't about laughable (Insane) broad strokes, either, such as "The Jews" or "England". Its about hard tacks. Organizations or government officials who ordered it, individuals or units who forged documents, and then organizations, individuals, or units which are forcing people to teach it now.
I've noticed that you folks seem utterly incapable of answering these questions, with the exception of Illusion, who fingers the Illuminati.
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Can you be more specific?
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So Dan, do you buy into either of our two theories for who 'invented' the Holocaust? So far its the Illuminati, the Templars, and the Rothschilds versus the New York times and a dozen Jewish lawyers. Do you subscribe to either of these theories or do you have your own?
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I'm sorry, I just can't discuss this illuminati/templar/freemason business. I just can't take it seriously. So we'll just accept that as a theory for the reader to consider.

N.B. it took 11 'revisionists' and 'sceptics' to reach this conclusion. This, after one accuses the entirety of academic of possessing a Hive Mind...

If you really insist on wading through the conspiracy theories, click through to read the thread in full).

This watchblogging lark, it's clearly catching

Never let it be said that we are alone in taking an interest in the bizarre little world of Holocaust Denial. Nor that we are the only ones to take part in the spectator-sport of watchblogging, a term that if it doesn't already exist, should definitely be invented. Let's see what Google has to say: okay, 251 hits, people are claiming they invented it first, but it came to me entirely independently. Honest. Who the hell cares anyhow?

Ahem. Anyway... Just when you thought the dust had settled from the discovery of our mirror-blog CODOH Watch, along comes
Xcalibur and takes watchblogging to a new level: RODOH Watch.

As he writes in his opening post:

RODOH stands for Real Open Debate of the Holocaust(*). Yes, there are some folks out there in internetland who don't believe in Nazi gas chambers, Einsatzgruppen killings and such-like. The site's owner is an amiable Holocaust denier from Arizona called Scott Smith. He would probably prefer to be thought of as a "Revisionist". Scott doesn't like Nazi gas chambers unless they were used for fumigation puposes. No homicidal gas chambers in Scott's world. You might be tempted to ask at this point, "Hey Xcalibur, is Scott an anti-semite"? Hmm. More on that at some future date. Scott does like free speech, however. And so he is a champion of David Irving, Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolph and other Holocaust Deniers who have run afoul of the laws of distant lands which prohibit such denial. I agree with Scott on this point but not necessarily for the same reasons. Anyway, he runs RODOH as a free speech forum.

Free Speech. Interesting concept that. A value to be held dear. Yet the practicalities of it are often not so lofty as the notion. This is the essence of RODOH's problem: How does one maintain a free speech forum on the internet and yet deal with all the mental patients, day-dreamers, idiots, cranks, fucktards, trolls, morons, anti-semites, fools, and garden-variety motherfuckers who make up a slice of the human population who would really be better off exiled to their own island? Madagascar, anyone? Since it is RODOH's problem, it is Scott's problem. And up 'til very recently he hasn't dealt with it. Last week he has begun to take baby-steps toward moderating the boards. Unfortunately Scott decided to announce long ago that he would never ban anyone from the boards on a permanent basis. Sounds good, for a free speech forum. On the other hand, Scott painted himself into a corner with this announcement. This is good news for Scott's nemesis, Jonnie A. Hargis, aka "Hannover" of the CODOH forum. Jonnie doesn't like free speech. In fact, he's a racist, fascist cunt and runs his forum accordingly. And he'd love to see Scott forced into banning someone permanently from RODOH. So Scott is boxed: He forgot that one of the basic rules of strategy is that you never announce to your opponent what you "never" intend doing.

Indeed. We look forward to seeing what Xcalibur makes of 'the antics of the mental patients inhabiting the RODOH forum', and who he diagnoses as deranged. Who will feel his barbs? Stay tuned to find out. Now all that remains is for Xcalibur and us to blogroll each other and the incestuous circle will be complete....

"Dr." Rudolf?

Another point of similarity between evolution deniers and Holocaust deniers, though maybe not as strong as the others, is the use of fraudulent credentials.

Though it seems that this phenomenon is not as widespread among the "revisionists", there are two notable examples. The first is rather straightforward - Fred Leuchter misrepresented himself as an engineer.

The second is more interesting. Germar Rudolf did not manage to receive a doctorate from Max Planck Institute for Solid State Research. Apparently, the reason for not letting him defend his dissertation was political, but whatever it was, the fact is that he has no PhD.

It is well-known that Rudolf used many pseudonyms during his "revisionist" career. While the use of pseudonyms does not matter generally, he used pseudonyms with doctorates, later explaining it thus:

In spring and summer 1992 I was called by several defence lawyers as an expert witness in several trials imposed on Revisionists in Germany (see footnote 103 of the brochure mentioned). In these trials -- as in all trials against Revisionists -- the judges refused to accept any evidence presented by the defence, including all expert witnesses. I had to learn that a chemist (me) was being refused because he was neither a toxicologist nor a historian, an engineer (Leuchter) being refused because he was neither a chemist nor a historian, a historian (Prof. Haverbeck) being refused because he was neither a chemist nor an engineer. My conclusions were that one obviously had to be at the same time an engineer, a chemist, a toxicologist, a historian and a perhaps even an barrister to be accepted as an expert witness at a German court. The legal process being so perverted in Germany, we decided to mock it by inventing a person with all these features, but then we realized that this would be a bit unrealistic, so we split that person into many.

Hardly an excuse for such a fraudulent practice.

Anyway, if you google for "Dr Germar Rudolf" you will get quite lot a of hits. That this misrepresentation of Rudolf's credentials may be deliberate is clear from a recent Cesspit message (emphasis mine):

A institution I will not identify ( due to the fact anti revisionists read this board) is raising money and as part of the effort, they are selling bricks which people can have inscribed with a name or saying.

In honor of the great contributions to Revisionism that Germar Rudolf has provided to truth seekers everywhere, I have decide to buy and dedicate a brick to him.

Besides his name, I also have a few lines available where I can include a short saying.

Does anyone on the board have any ideas to pass along.

Also, would it be appropriate to use the word Dr. in the title.

I am also open to buying a brick for some other revisionist who has moved the cause along, living or dead.

This person obviously knows that Rudolf is not "Dr.", yet considers applying this title to him anyway.

Update: heh, they just can't stop digging.

"To Dr Germar Rudolf,
incarcerated for fighting against
the false dogmas of the new religion"

("called the 'holocau$t")

Update 2: and another one:

As for the Dr. title; it might not be legal to advertise him as a doctor for business, but I feel he very much deserves the title, so why not add the Dr. title. Plus, it might help remove suspicions.

How about:
Dr. Germar Rudolf – for your relentless search for the truth. Thank you!

Update 3: as is usual for the Cesspit, when a posting becomes too embarrassing, it disappears. The first quote is by "vincentferrer", the second - by "kk", the third - by "Sushicotto".

Dumbos try to tackle arguments, fail miserably.

CODOH gurus are being literally eviscerated at this blog. Pitiful Cesspit fauna cannot ignore this fact, but neither can it refute anything, so it has to do what it does best: lie or distort.

A notorious Cesspit clown "Carto's Cutlass Supreme" thinks he has me nailed down:

It's interesting because Romanov agrees that Pechersky's claims are not believable, and the way he tries to get around that is by saying the holocaust writers lied about what Pechersky said.

The problem is that Pechersky wrote his own book which had the problematic comments.

Hey, no big deal, it's just 10 men executed at a trial where Pechersky was lead prosecution witness. (1963 Kiev)

But of course, in the very posting which he cites, I never said that anybody lied or distorted Pechersky's text. That was a possibility offered by Mr. Blatt, based on his own bad experience with Miriam Novitch.

What is important in Mr. Blatt's reply is the point that Pechersky never claimed to have seen the process itself, indeed, that the Jewish Sobibor prisoners could have learned about the method only through hearsay. Only those people who operated the gas chambers could provide the reliable information about the methods used (and they did, after the war).

The second quote I provide - the quote from the book edited by Suhl - fully confirms Mr. Blatt's point about hearsay. Not only the method described is hearsay, it is second-hand hearsay, i.e. even Pechersky's source heard this from someone else. Witnesses' credibility is in no way impeached when they repeat hearsay, if they don't claim that this is what they have seen with their own eyes (and Pechersky did no such thing, of course), and especially if they explicitly identify hearsay as such (and this is what Pechersky did).

And Graf deceptively omitted the passages which identify Pechersky's information as second-hand hearsay.

This simple idea evidently flew right through CCS' empty head.

Finally, as a comic relief, you can read Jonnie "I am not Hannover" Hargis' hysterical argument-free "response" in the same thread. What can I say? Cesspit at its best!

Update: CCS continues to dig his grave even deeper.

Mazal has a whole library of holocaust books, but offers Romanov a book that he just discounted in the previous paragraph. The only way it could have been worse is if Mazal offered Romanov a Leon Uris book!

Romanov bolsters his position by quoting Mazal's email:

No Jew who was once inside the gas chamber in operation come out alive. The information about the gassing installation came from the accused Nazi testimonies in the court proceedings.

At the end of the day, CCS is even more clueless than he was in the beginning. It was Blatt who discounted the book, and it is Blatt whom CCS quotes - not Mazal. Reading skills of a kindergartner. Anyway, what is CCS' point in the first sentence? Is the imbecile unaware that it is the very same book that Graf quotes (just an English edition), and that's why it is this very book that had to be checked? CCS, why are you so dumb?

And then follows up with his own comment, "Makes sense, doesn't it."

Actually it doesn't make sense because Romanov is someone who has been posting daily for the holocaust cause for years, and who maybe is a second online persona of Andrew Mathis. Clearly he knows that most of the information about the gas chambers is from Jewish inmates.

This is obviously untrue in the case of Sobibor. What Sobibor Sonderkommandos survived?

So Romanov has never heard of Yankel Wiernik's Year in Treblinka? Or how about this book:

Filip Müller, Auschwitz Inferno: Testimony of a Sonderkommando, Routledge & Kegan Paul, London 1979.

So Romanov has never seen Shoah (1985) by Claude Lanzmann where Abraham Bomba talks about being inside the gas chamber on DVD disk 3 chapter 2?

Yes, Treblinka and Auschwitz to debunk a point about Sobibor. How clever! (A side note: in fact, the point is generally more or less true in case of all Aktion Reinhardt camps, even where Sonderkommandos survived. Because most of SKs were just dragging the bodies out of the gas chambers - which does not mean that they would have accurate information about the method itself, including all specifics. Many did get it right - that people were gassed with engine exhaust. But some of them (along even with several Nazis not directly involved in the procedure) (probably) incorrectly thought that the engine was diesel. Others thought that different methods (like sucking the air out of chamber or steaming) were used in the past. So, as I said, the point stands - as a rule, only the people most directly involved in the murder procedure would have non-hearsay, accurate information about the details).

Ah, these CODOH "gentlemen"... And NAFCASH.

Some CODOH puppet writes [copy here]:

I notice that the mentally retarded/ill cowards and liars at CODOH Watch have yet to make any comments on the NAFCASH site, much less accept any of the NAFCASH challenges. What does it say about an issue when the Jews give it the silent treatment?

By the way, if you haven't visited the - http://www.nafcash.com/ - site lately, The Treblinka CSI Challenge is up to $210,000.00 and the NAFCASH Forensic Challenge is up to $25,000.00.

I wonder what that idiot - loser Mathis is waiting for?

Just like evolution deniers, Holocaust deniers are fond of bogus challenges.

Let's see what this "NAFCASH" has to offer.

Read more!

A detailed FORENSIC EXAMINATION of the site of the wartime Treblinka camp, using sophisticated electronic ground radar, has found no evidence of mass graves there. For six days in October 1999, an Australian team headed by Richard Krege, a qualified electronics engineer, carried out an examination of the soil at the site of the former Treblinka II camp in Poland, where, Holocaust historians say, more than half a million Jews were put to death in gas chambers and then buried in mass graves.

According to the Encyclopedia of the Holocaust (1997), for example, "a total of 870,000 people" were killed and buried at Treblinka between July 1942 and April 1943. Then, between April and July 1943, the hundreds of thousands of corpses were allegedly dug up and burned in batches of 2,000 or 2,500 on large grids made of railway ties. Krege's team used an $80,000 GROUND PENETRATION RADAR (GPR) device, which sends out vertical radar signals that are visible on a computer monitor. GPR detects any large-scale disturbances in the soil structure to a normal effective depth of four or five meters, and sometimes up to ten meters (GPR devices are routinely used around the world by geologists, archeologists and police). In its Treblinka investigation, Krege's team also carried out visual soil inspections, and used an auger to take numerous soil core samples. The team carefully examined the entire Treblinka II site, especially the alleged "mass graves" portion, and carried out control examinations of the surrounding area. They found no soil disturbance consistent with the burial of hundreds of thousands of bodies, or even evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed. In addition, Krege and his team found no evidence of individual graves, bone remains, human ashes, or wood ashes.

They found no evidence that the ground had ever been disturbed? Um, hellooo? Wouldn't that mean that there was no camp at all, the claim that even most rabid deniers prefer not to make, because the evidence for camp's existence is undisputed? (But cf. this). This is akin to a 9/11 conspiracy theorist "investigating" whether the planes could have brought down the WTC towers, and concluding that the towers themselves never existed!

That is, either Krege used bogus methods OR he incorrectly interpreted the results.

Of course, we know that there were graves (before they were mostly obliterated by the Nazis themselves), and they were so big as to cause stench 20 km away from Treblinka! The remains were also found just after the war:

There are also other traces. For example, in the north-eastern part, over a surface covering about 2 ha. (5 acres), there are large quantities of ashes mixed with sand, among which are numerous human bones, often with the remains of decomposing tissues.

As a result of an examination made by an expert it was found that ashes were the remains of burnt human bones. The examination of numerous human skulls found in the camp has shown that they bear no traces of external injuries. Within a radius of several hundred yards from the camp site an unpleasant smell of burnt ash and decay is noticeable, growing stronger as one approaches.

You can read more about Krege's idiocy here and here. Some nifty details there.

It will suffice to say that it's been 7 years, and Krege still has not published any report about his alleged findings.

Now, to the challenge itself:

Locate the alleged “huge mass graves” of Treblinka. You must, SCIENTIFICALLY – FORENSICALLY prove the EXACT number of graves, their EXACT location, their EXACT dimensions and their EXACT volumetric density. The number of remains must total AT LEAST -

870,000

Actually, recent research indicates a lower number of ca. 800,000, but that's beside the point (although the challenge is already unanswerable because of that). The problem here is that no one claims that these bodies are still there. They have been burned in 1943. In fact, if we were to find the bodies of 800,000 people in Treblinka today, that would mean that what we think we knew about Treblinka would be patently false, because, to repeat, the bodies have been destroyed.

And of course one cannot quantify from the remaining ashes, pieces of bones and other remains which are still buried in Treblinka soil any meaningful number of the victims, even if one were to suppose that no ashes/remains were taken elsewhere.

I.e., the challenge cannot be met in principle, not unlike Kent Hovind's evolution challenge. It is totally bogus.

The same applies to their second, smaller challenge too. Actually, even if the rules were not so idiotic, one wouldn't be able to perform the excavations anyway, because, whether one likes it or not, the site is considered sacred, for an obvious reason. The only reason for some sort of excavation to be permitted by authorities would be to delineate the area of the graves themselves, for the construction of a monument (Jewish religious law forbids disturbing human remains). This is what was done by Prof. Andrzej Kola, who has found numerous graves in Belzec extermination camp area, and numerous human remains (see his report Belzec. The Nazi Camp for Jews in the Light of Archaeological Sources. Excavations 1997-1999.). But since there already is a monument in Treblinka (probably built without regard for religious sensibilities), this option is unavailable.

Finally, but most importanty, nobody is going to dance to the denier pigs' tune and disturb the remains of Treblinka mass graves just to appease them and meet their "challenge". Maybe these mental midgets don't know what dignity is, but we do.

Update: "vali" again [copy here]:

You are right Haldan, point taken. But it's just so hard to resist when the people we are talking about are in fact cowards, liars, idiots, losers, etc. The fact remains, the members of NAFCASH have put their money where their mouths are, and CODOH Watch gives them the silent treatment. How else can you describe that without using the word coward?

Yes, we're dealing with cowards, liars, idiots and losers, as is evident from the above comment.

Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis advertises our blog

Here.

Interestingly, he doesn't address a single argument, and only engages in ad hominem attacks on Andrew Mathis.

I understand - it's hard for Jonnie to argue with informed opponents when he can't edit, censor and delete their postings. Too bad!

Update: to clarify: "CODOH Watch" is our "meta blog" in which short announcements of our messages are posted for "Google" reasons, so to say. The links lead here. So it is funny that Jonnie did not choose to advertise the main blog.

Update 2: Poor Tommy Moron, deluded as always. Kudos to Obersto for being less cowardly/obtuse than the others and posting the link to the main blog. ;-)

Update 3: Two more deniers have chimed in with ad hominems. But where's the discussion of specific arguments? Why the dodging? And here I sit thinking that "revisionism", that intellectual adventure of the previous century, is all about debate... NOT!

Update 4: Here's Andrew's response.

The Cesspit Stirs

Never let it be said that our friends at The Cesspit are quick off the mark. Having noticed the existence of this blog on April 10, it's taken Johnny Hargis (57) and the gang until, what is it today? May 18 to realise that we have a mirror-site, which we deliberately called CODOH Watch in order to direct some Google traffic our way. All it consists of is Andrew placing links to every post on here and poking fun at Hannover et al in short one-liners. So now sit back and enjoy the overreaction:

-----------------------------------
Hannover
Thu May 18, 2006 11:37 am
Tinfoil Hat Mathis and The Nutjobs bring you CODOH Watch
-----------------------------------
Beautiful. A great indicator of the strength of our points.
You gotta see this wacko site. They're in a state of panic about the thorough debunking we're doing of the so called 'holocau$t'. Think of it, in their desperation they resort to building a site dedicated to attacking CODOH. Are they obsessed or what? You gotta love it.
see:CODOH Watch
Take note that Tinfoil Hat Mathis and The Nutjobs have been utterly demolished here at this forum.
- Hannover

In typical Hannover style, he then posts again, having pulled off his trusty list of links to past threads hallowing famous debating 'victories':

-----------------------------------
Hannover
Thu May 18, 2006 11:48 am
-----------------------------------
The CODOH Revisionist Forum has given Tinfoil Hat Mathis plenty of rope to hang himself and his 'holocau$t' lies. Take note that he is the same nutjob who specializes in threatening Revisionists.
Also remember, Tinfoil Hat Mathis is the premiere spokesman for the so called 'Holocau$t' History Project, talk about desperate. Read these and see just what a fool Mathis is.
- Hannover

'Holo. Hist. Proj. rep. attempts to intimidate Bradley Smith'

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis humidity/gassing canard'

'holocaust' denial article by Andrew Mathis debunked here'

'Prof. Mc Nally dissects HHP's Andrew Mathis' bogus article'

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis on Zyklon scent removal'

'Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more'

'Believer org. spokesman, Andrew Mathis, demolished in debate'

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis attempts damage control'

'Email from Andrew Mathis (The Holocaust History Project)'

'holocaust' History Project to unveil section on Treblinka'

This, by the way, is vintage Hargis: whereas deniers are allowed to reopen debates that have long been settled, everyone else is 'debunked' once and for all. The constant references to 'panic' and 'imminent shattering of the myth' are also vintage Hannover, betraying, as we've said before, a perhaps dim awareness of his own mortality (Johnny is 57) and the fact that though he rules supreme in the Führerbunker, aside from a handful of acolytes, no one takes him seriously. That's why we check in at his forum, so we can have a good laugh.

And then we have the comment of Friedrich Braun:

-----------------------------------
friedrich braun
Thu May 18, 2006 11:54 am
-----------------------------------
Andrew Mathis writes:
Wilhelm Stäglich Dies
CODOH hates it when I celebrate deaths of Holocaust deniers, but let me just say: This bastard should rot in hell.

Now, how psychologically twisted and morally depraved do you have to be to do a little dance while high-fiving each other and yelping with joy because someone died? Did Stäglich participate in some "war crimes"? NO. All he ever did is write books exposing the endless lies of the holocau$t industry...and that's enough to to earn him eternal enmity.
Mathis has always struck me as both a creep and an asshole.
What kind of a man hates with such blind passion?

And thank you for overreacting precisely in the way Andrew hoped for - poor ol' Herr Braun does not seem to realise he has been comprehensively wound up.

A short while later, another specimen of pond-life, Vali, chimes in wondering why CODOH Watch hasn't met the NAFCASH 'Treblinka Challenge':

-----------------------------------
vali
Thu May 18, 2006 12:51 pm
CODOH Watch and NAFCASH
-----------------------------------
I notice that the mentally retarded/ill cowards and liars at CODOH Watch have yet to make any comments on the NAFCASH site, much less accept any of the NAFCASH challenges. What does it say about an issue when the Jews give it the silent treatment?
By the way, if you haven't visited the - http://www.nafcash.com/ - site lately, The Treblinka CSI Challenge is up to $210,000.00 and the NAFCASH Forensic Challenge is up to $25,000.00.
I wonder what that idiot - loser Mathis is waiting for?

Such rage. Such coherence. Such a shame Vali is projecting so badly onto us that one might wonder whether he might not be a cousin of Celtic Patriot.

Denier-baiting: fun for all the family...

Update:
Friedrich Braun sneers:

Oops, I almost forgot. That would be Mathis "PhD" of course.
In the cognitively demanding field of... English lit. -- and from a second rate place. A trained, one-lobed monkey can get a grad. degree in English lit....it's not exactly particle physics.

We look forward to seeing Herr Braun's own qualifications. A Habilitation perhaps?
- Nick Terry, PhD in History, King's College London

What's with the IQ and stuff?

White supremacists are obsessed with IQ. Why, then, most of them are mumbling imbeciles, with apparent IQs of chimps?

Here's an excellent example from the Stormfront forum. Some "Celtic_Patriot" learns of the recent news about Germany updating the list of the German Jews killed in the Holocaust. His conclusion? Holocaust is a hoax, what else!

Being a Jew, you'd like only Jews to speak for the whole World, only problem is, China and Germany don't care about the Jews anymore, the 50 years of mourning is up and it's on with regular business, after all it was only, it turns out, 150,000 Jews, not 6,000,000. Oh well, time to shut down the Hoax museums, big deal.

When it is pointed out to him that the report speaks about the German Jews only, and thus even in principle cannot "disprove" the total accepted approximate figure of the Holocaust victims, this yahoo stubbornly goes on and on, digging himself even deeper into manure of his own making.


Celtic_Patriot, apparently an high-IQ specimen
Enjoy the thread!

PS: Later the freak says:

Whites are smarter than Jews.

Bwahahahaha!

Update: he's still at it. Please, tell me, where are such retards born? Surely near some nuclear plant?

The Eminently Fair CODOH Forum Moderator

In one of the more amusing moments over at the Jonnie Hargis-run CODOH Forum, a thread was begun by one of the members (all of whom are Holocaust deniers -- there is actually little or no debate going on over there), and it was deleted by the "moderator." Then it was reposted, with the "moderator" noting, "To avoid favoritism, I have left only the original post."

Of course, the original post was by Jonnie Hargis (Hannover). Personally, I'd think it was favoritism if I didn't know, thanks to CODOH founder Bradley Smith saying so, that Hargis is the moderator as well as a participant.

As our own Sergey Romanov noted earlier, despite claims of desire for "open debate." Smith's admission, which he quickly deleted from his own blog, can be found in Sergey's links.

As long as Smith continues to employ Hargis as his useful idiot moderator, only RODOH will remain as the open-debate Holocaust forum on the Internet.

Jews / vermin

While you're reading this illuminating CODOH thread, keep in mind that "revisionism" has nothing to do with antisemitism. Well, at least according to "revisionists" themselves.

Update: Also see this.

The first dirty foot in a rotten mouth

I said:

Let's see how the deniers react, though. Will they say that it makes up for "revisionists'" arrests?

Well, the first response is in.

A German neo-Nazi writes:

If he was arrested only because of his opinion or his scientific results - well then...

... this would be a hate crime against my nation and the German people. It is absolutely ok that hoaxters are arrested and sentenced because of hate speech.

Sicko doubts the Holocaust, hailed by the Cesspit slime.

Certain Bob Allen, a "cyber libertarian and advocate for the basic human rights of men", who thinks that rape does not hurt women ("... when a female refuses sex with a man, she's telling him that she has no respect for him as a man. She receives what she does to others.") also doubts the Holocaust.

Not surprisingly, his idiocy is re-published at the Cesspit. Birds of a feather...

Anyway, here's my very rude ;-) response to the schmuck. It hasn't been published by him yet (the comments there are moderated):

Sir, you're a gross ignoramus, nothing else. How about learning something about the topic (the basics, at least), before showing that you're a fool?

You write:

"Indeed there were gas chambers and crematoriums, but why build so many acres of barracks holding hundreds of thousands if the function of the place is just to exterminate them?"

But you're raising a strawman here. No, extermination was not the sole function of concentration camps. Moreover, most concentration camps didn't even have that function.

The Jews - and non-Jews - were used for labor. It were mainly the Jews who were not fit for labor who were immediately sent to the gas chambers.

Such a simple fact, and you could have learned it if you have just got off your lazy ass and read a book.

Here's my diagnosis: you are a moron.

I often respond quite rudely to the denier drivel, and sometimes maybe I go over the top. But in this case that's what was needed, wouldn't you agree? ;-)

Update: Some of his posts look like satire/black humor, Landover Baptist style. I'm not completely sure if this is a real person, all points still stand, though ;-)

Update 2: Bradley Smith chimes in:

You're experience of visceral doubt with regard to the Holocaust story, without substantial research into the matter, rings a bell for me. I had the same experience many years ago. Out of the blue.

CODOH is not antisemitic.

Even when one of their "finest" says things like:

It's all a matter of Jews playing 'good cop, bad cop.' Fake disagreements to make a record that Jews are not totally cohesive.

No Sirree! Not antisemitic at all.

Update: Also lookie here. No antisemitic agenda there, don't even think about it!