On Jonnie Hargis's Führerbunker, Canadian Holocaust denier Friedrich Braun posted "Ninety-Five Theses on the Holocaust" by Professor Patrick McNally of the Faculty of Policy Studies at Chuo University in Japan.
I threw these responses out in less than half an hour. I seriously hope Prof. McNally does not teach basic logic. A shorter version of this has already been e-mailed to McNally:
Read more!
*1. There is no forensic evidence whatsoever for the hoaxoco$t.
This is simply not true. If McNally (and other deniers) would define "forensic," we could move forward from there, but they never do. So the first stage in debating these "theses" would be to establish the truth or falsity of this first thesis. But we can't do that because McNally, like most deniers, won't define terms first.
*2. There logically cannot be any holyhoax eyewitnesses.
This is begging the question. We have yet to establish (1).
*3. All so-called holocaust evidence is merely hearsay and senile lies.
That can only apply to eyewitnesses, if even then. So we're back to (1)
*4. The hoaxoco$t affirmers jump grasshopper-like from refuted lies to
new lies awaiting refutation.
Can McNally provide a single example?
*5. The hoaxoco$t is world history`s filthiest blood libel.
How so? Wouldn't something like the Lincoln and Norwich blood libels be worse, considering they ended in violence against and mass deportatation of Jews?
*6. The Awshucks Labor Camp had more amenities than the USA WW2 camps for Japanese Americans.
A swimming pool used only by SS is not going to cut it, nor is a movie theater.
*7. Crematoria are never used anywhere to kill people. They are used to burn the bodies of people who are already dead. There is nothing ominous about crematoria.
There is something ominous about 52 crematoria muffles able to incinerate over 2,500 bodies per day. In a camp that could barely hold 200,000 people, it's a bit strange to be able to incinerate the entire camp population in less than three months, unless you're expecting mass deaths to occur.
*8. Awshucks and all labor camps had insecticidal gas chambers.
This proves or disproves nothing.
*9. Insecticidal gas chambers saved Jewish lives.
And they saved SS lives. Which do you think were more important to the Nazis?
*10. There were no homicidal gas chambers anywhere in German occupied territory.
What about at Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Treblinka, Majdanek, and Sobibor?
*11. Faurisson`s Challenge [Draw me a homicidal gas chamber!] must be met. Holocaustomaniacs must finally put up or shut up!
Why? What special right does Faurisson have to have his demands met that others
do not? We're talking about a man who, for years, asked for "just one proof" of gas chambers, and when Jean-Claude Pressac published a whole book of proofs, and Faurisson still won't shut up.
*12. There were no 6,000,000 jooz to be killed.
Sure there were. The Wannsee Protokol has that nearly that many in Poland and Ukraine alone.
*13. During WW2 there was a war going on. During wars people die and get killed.
Again, this proves or disproves nothing.
*14. If Hiroshima deaths were not murders, neither were Auschwitz deaths.
Straw man alert! Hiroshima was murder.
*15. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were real holocausts [killing by burning].
OK, so let's just call the Holocaust the Shoah instead.
*16. The only real holocaust in Germany was against Germans in their firebombed cities.
That emanates only from your limited definition of "Holocaust."
*17. The worst war criminals [1941-1945] were the American Air Farce fire bombing squadrons.
All sides in the war committed crimes. Both Americans and Japanese did in the Pacific Theater, and we know the Soviets did. The British did most of the bombing of Dresden. But does that exculpate the Nazis? No, it doesn't.
*18. There is better and more proof for the Trojan War than for the holyhoax.
There is no proof at all for the Trojan War, or even Troy.
*19. Belief in the hoaxoco$t is epistemologically similar to belief in witches.
Did the perpetrators of torture during the witch trials confess to engaging in torture? Because if they didn't, then you're wrong.
*20. Belief in the hoaxoco#t is morally much worse than belief in witches.
Based in whose moral calculus? Yours?
21. G, Rudolf`s Lectures on the Holocaust is the indispensable vademecum for students of the holocaust.
Perhaps then you can explain why Mr. Irving withdrew Mr. Rudolf's affidavit from evidence?
*22. The constant changes in the holyhoax fable are due to revisionist pressure and not to any jooish honesty.
This is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.
*23. Jooz have abandoned the filthy "soap made from Jews" blood libel.
No, historians have abandoned it.
24. The whole hollowcause story is exactly like the filthy "soap made from Jews" lie.
This shows an utter failure to show causation.
*25. Only jooish obstinacy, greed, and mendacity maintain the Hoaxocost Lie.
And all that inconvenient evidence. Back to (1).
26. The Awshucks Labor Camp was much safer than the German cities being bombed.
Again, begging the question.
27. Giving false testimony must be a criminal and tort offense. ["Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!"]
So shall we punish sixty-nine SS witnesses for bearing false witness against themselves?
*28. In colloquial English and bureaucratic German, the phrase "Auschwitz Lie" has exactly opposite meanings.
This is a completely irrelevant observation.
*29. If the Auschwitz Lie collapses, the hoaxoco$t collapses.
This is false dilemma.
*30. The holyhoax is the Achilles heel of Jew Power over Gentiles.
Again, begging the question.
*31. If the hoaxoco$t collapses, Jew Power collapses.
Ditto.
*32. Nazis wanted to deport Jooz to somewhere.
Wow, we agree!
*33. Zionists wanted jooz to be deported to somewhere.
Again, we agree.
*34. Nazis and Zionists cooperated to save jooz by getting them out of the war zone to Palestine.
It couldn't have happened that way. Germany never controlled the Mediterranean. As such, the British Navy never lost its ability to enforce its white papers on Palestine that restricted and later outlawed immigration.
*35. Russia and Western Europe have different railroad width gauges.
True.
*36. The Bergen-Belch-Burp Camp and several other camps were located at
the railroad width gauge difference line. They were all transit camps and
not death camps.
This is a faulty syllogism. You cannot conclude your final sentence from your penultimate premise.
*37. If it is morally acceptable for Jews to deport Palestinians from
their homeland, it was morally acceptable for Germans to deport Jews from a
country not their homeland. This is called Torah tit-for-tat.
Another straw man.
*38. Deholyhoaxotoxification is urgently needed.
I don't even understand what that means.
*39. Both the Nurnberg Show Trials and Stalin`s Show Trials used lots of
torture to get confessions.
Who was tortured at Nuremberg?
*40. The Nurnberg Show Trials were far worse than Stalin`s Show Trials
because a whole people was condemned in perpetuity at Nurnberg.
Only if one believes that all Germans were Nazis. Do you?
*41. An international commission must study the forensic aspects of the
holocaust accusations of murder. This commission cannot include any
Jews, Christians, or citizens of HOGs [Holocaust Occupied Governments].
So who will do it? Muslims? Buddhists? Avowed atheists from Samoa?
*42. Finkelstein`s witty and informative The Holocaust Industry does not
even touch on the holocaust as such.
True.
*43. Jooz lie and then get angry when people do not believe their lies.
As do all people, but I question the relevance of this statement. And I seriously question whether all Jews lie, if that is your suggestion.
*44. The absolutely biggest jooish lie is the hoaxoco$t.
And again, begging the question.
*45. The holyhoax fable is nothing but jooish hate speech.
Ditto.
*46. Jooish anti-Gentile lies are a clever defense tactic.
Defense against what?
*47. Gentiles get so overwhelmed by jooish lies that they do not see that jooz are committing the very crimes they accuse Gentiles of.
Where are "Jooz" using gas chambers?
*48. Gentiles will stop telling truths about jooz when jooz stop telling lies about Gentiles.
What truths are being told about Jews that we would want stopped?
*49. Germans must institute a class action lawsuit against the holocaust jet-set plutocrats.
That'll go over big.
*50. The hoaxoco$tofried European Union should be dissolved back into its member states.
I object to this "thesis" on the grounds of relevance.
*51. Holocaust affirmers should be incarcerated.
This would be violation of First Amendment and Article 19 of the U.N. charter.
*52. World Jewry has to pay back all money extorted via the Auschwitz Lie.
Back to our good old friend begging the question.
*53. The once proud German people have become cowards enslaved by the
Auschwitz Lie.
And again: Begging the question.
*54. Germany is now a HOG [Holocaust Obsessed Government].
I don't see how. They seem to have moved past it.
*55. The Hoaxoco$t is the worse plague facing humanity today.
AIDS kills millions yearly. How many die at the hands of the Holocaust?
*56. All UN member states should institute an anti-Holocaust loyalty
oath for their citizens. No holocaust affirmer can be trusted.
This is McCarthyism at best and fascism at worst.
*57. The holyhoaxofried UN itself should be disbanded.
Would that be before or after your McCarthyite "loyalty oath"?
*58. The holyhoax must be privatized, i.e. removed from public space.
Again, I object due to relevance.
*59. All hoaxoco$t museums, libraries, and stink tanks must be closed.
Ditto
*60. Alley the Weasel told significant lies to get his UAssA citizenship.
Please name them or retract this ad hominem.
*61. Alley the Weasel is a schmaltzy vicious hate-mongering racist liar.
Ditto.
*62. Alley the Weasel, history`s filthiest libeler, should be deported
back to the JewsOnlyState whence he came. He did not come to the USA as a
homeless refugee but as a speaker and spreader of anti-Gentile hatred.
Wiesel never lived in Israel. Unless you mean that France, from which Wiesel emigrated to the U.S., is a "JewsOnlyState."
*63. The Holocaust industry causes infinitely more harm than the tobacco
industry. Public health warnings should be put on anything published by
holocaustomaniacs.
Tobacco kills 500,000 Americans per year. Again, as per (55), it is your job to prove what you allege.
*64. The Hoaxoco$t is elite Jewry`s cash cow, golden calf, and prize
alibi for any and all of its crimes.
Perhaps, but again, what is the relevance?
*65. The holocaust fable has replaced Christ`s Crucifixion.
So history literally changed?
*66. The birth of Isrealhell has replaced Christ`s Resurrection.
Ditto.
*67. Holocaustianity has replaced Christianity.
So what organization does Benedict XVI run?
*68. The vast majority of the jooish sheeple are hoaxoco$t racists.
This is more ad hominem.
*69. Israel must continue to exist but within the 1948 UN mandated borders.
OK, but I again object due to relevance.
*70. Israel can continue to serve as an open-air mental hospital for incorrigible racists. Where could Izzies go?
This is again ad hominem.
*71. There cannot be any ¡Èone state solution¡É forcing Palestinians to live with racist joos.
Ditto.
*72. The apart-hate JewState must get rid of its worse than Nazi race laws.
Could Jews in Germany vote after 1935?
*73. Israel sees the UAssA as its chief near-term enemy.
What proof is there of this assertion?
*74. Israel destroys the UAssA through its fifth column of traitors high
in the American government. Israel blackmails the JewAssA into wars fought
for the JewState and these wars are bleeding America to death.
Ditto
*75. Unrepentant racist Jews must be helped to emigrate to the
demilitarized JewState or be put back into a new ghetto.
Got yourself a little Madagascar plan, do you?
*76. Jewdayism is not any kind of a religion but merely a racist
political ideology.
How is Judaism racist? Give examples.
*77. Zio-Judyism must be privatized back into the synagogues and mental
wards.
This is self-contradiction. You said above that Israel should continue to exist.
*78. Zio-Judaism is a Tallmud teaching of anti-Gentile hatred.
The Talmud is specifically against Zionism.
*79. Aliyah Zionism teaches that all jooz should emigrate to Izzie. Actually a great idea!
This is actually a terrible idea. Fourteen million Jews in a space the size of Delaware is a invitation to a nuclear attack by people like you.
*80. Non-aliyah Zionism teaches that jooz should support the JewsOnlyState by acting as a fifth column of traitors in the various cattle-goyim states. Not a good idea!
Any proof for this whopper? Of course not.
*81. Zionism must be recognized as [not even] a racism.
Once again, the relevance here cannot be established?
*82. Any Gentile racism is on a higher moral level than Zionism.
Why?
*83. Semitism [Jewish Supremacy] teaches that a joo elite should use deceit to dominate cattle goyim nations. Semitists principally use the Auschwitz Club to control the goyim
Again, there is no proof offered here -- just assertions.
*84. Anti-Semitists [not anti-Semites] are urgently needed to fight Semitism [jooish supremacy].
You say potato.
*85. The "Clash of Civilizations" is just a joo scam used to cause wars against and among all humans.
Proof? Relevance? Either? Both?
*86. Jewry is defeating the West [both Black and White] with the hoaxoco$t lie. Jewry is simultaneously waging an anti-Islamic war using Gentile stooges to fight and die for Isrealhell.
Where is war being waged against Islam per se?
*87. Jewry`s multi-front wars are very risky for Mr. Joo because some cattle goyim might wake up.
Which wars are we speaking of?
*88. The German [Hitler] Revolution was very democratic. The French and Russian Revolutions were very undemocratic.
Can we see a demonstration of any relevance whatsoever?
*89. Elite Jewry started WW2 in 1933 by unilaterally declaring war on Germany.
So why did it take Germany six years to retaliate? This is beyond senseless. An economic boycott by a stateless people cannot be and is not an act of war.
*90. Jewism is the residual racism uniting the Solomon Sixpackers, i.e.
the hoi polloi of the jooish sheeple.
There is no proof offered. Again.
*91. The jooish contribution to Gentile societies is a net negative.
Look at a list of Nobel winners some time.
*92. An anti-Semitist [not auntie-Semenist] used to mean someone who hates Semitists. Now an anti-Semitist means someone whom Semitists hate.
You, again, say potato.
*93. A Zionist used to mean a Jew who wanted to send stupider Jews to Palestine. Now a Zionist is often a rich¡¡Jew who escapes from Israel and leaves the stupidest jooz holding the bag as the JewState implodes.
This is perhaps true, but where is the freaking relevance?
*94. The War on Terrorism [actually a War on Common Sense] is a joo- inspired scheme to get stupid Whites and Christians to kill innocent Arabs and Muslims.
Is there any proof of Jewish contrivance? Or any demonstration of relevance?
*95. Delendae sunt Judaea atque holyhoaxotoxia! [Israel and the hoaxoco$t must be destroyed.
And we end with another self-contradiction.
Can you respond to this without ad hominem? I'll bet $100 you can't.
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54 comments:
Actually, as far as the conditions in the US internment camps for the Japanese-Americans go, those folks had baseball games and tournaments, and teenage girls got to do their drum majorette and cheerleader stuff for those games.
Now, since Mr. McNally says conditions in Auschwitz (or Awshucks) were better, I'd like him to show me how and when the Nazis provided the Jews of Auschwitz with cheerleader outfits and baseball equipment.
Also, he says in one thesis that Israel should survive and in another that it must be destroyed.
Do make up your mind, Mr. McNally. After all, these "theses" are supposed to be your defining statement on how the entire world is to operate, and an entire planet is awaiting non-contradictory orders from you.
I suspect he can't resolve this dispute, so he'll just drop down into homo-erotic ad hominem insults aimed at the audience, which is doing the very worst thing it can do to folks like McNally: ridiculing him. He expects support, applause, or at least anger and emotional outrage, but not ridicule.
“This is simply not true. If McNally (and other deniers) would define "forensic," we could move forward from there”
I would define ireffutable evidence as the discovery of large number of corpses that can positively be determined to have died from the actions of Zyklon B gas. I am well aware that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, however, in this one example of forensic evidence the prosecution case is distinctly lacking. Even if the corpses were mostly incinerated this does not alter the fact of their non-existence. Perhaps this is the particular type of forensic evidence being referred to by McNally? Have millions, thousands or even hundreds of bodies poisoned by Zyklon ever been discovered at any time in Nazi occupied territory?
"I would define ireffutable evidence as "
You were not asked to define "irrefutable evidence".
Why are you, deniers, generally have comprehension problems? Maybe that's why you're deniers in the first place?
If you have even the slightest knowledge of the Holocaust, you know the answer to your obviously rhetorical question.
Cyanides have been found in the ruins of the gas chambers while human remains have been bored from the ground nearby. It's not *that* difficult to put these two facts together along with the other evidence and realise that the case is beyond any reasonable doubt.
“You were not asked to define "irrefutable evidence"
Did you notice that part at the end of your posts that says “comments”? That’s generally considered to be an invitation to comment. Is it a language thing with you Sergey?
“Cyanides have been found in the ruins of the gas chambers while human remains have been bored from the ground nearby”
The revisionist explanation is that it’s a morgue for typhus victims. It doesn’t seem implausible to me that a morgue for typhus victims was fumigated with a well known insecticide, nor does it seem strange to find human ashes buried next to a crematorium. I’m genuinely not claiming to have expert knowledge in this area but you must admit that at a heuristic level, there is nothing crazy about the revisionist position.
"“You were not asked to define "irrefutable evidence"
Did you notice that part at the end of your posts that says “comments”? That’s generally considered to be an invitation to comment. Is it a language thing with you Sergey?"
Yes, I was right about that comprehension problem.
"Why are you, deniers, generally have comprehension problems? Maybe that's why you're deniers in the first place?"
Have you any idea how stupid you look making statements about my comprehension after posting tripe like that?
"The revisionist explanation is that it’s a morgue for typhus victims. It doesn’t seem implausible to me that a morgue for typhus victims was fumigated with a well known insecticide,"
Except HCN is useless on bacteria. Try again. Air raid shelter? Carburetion chamber? What'll it be next time?
"nor does it seem strange to find human ashes buried next to a crematorium."
Noooo, but it *does* mean that the eyewitnesses have their stories corroborated by physical evidence.
That's the thing, you see, no one piece of evidence can ever be conclusive, there is no 'one proof' of any crime. There could always be some alternative explanation for an individual item. But taken together, there is only one conclusion possible.
"I’m genuinely not claiming to have expert knowledge in this area but you must admit that at a heuristic level, there is nothing crazy about the revisionist position."
Yes, there is, since it would imply that millions of people just vanished 'somewhere to the east', without leaving a single trace in the documentary, eyewitness or physical record. Which we find significantly more improbable than the accepted account.
“Except HCN is useless on bacteria”
Zyklon was used to kill lice which, I would expect be found on the bodies and clothing of people who died of typhus. Zyklon fumigation may have been utilized in these rooms for exactly the same reasons it was utilized in many other parts of the camp.
“Try again. Air raid shelter? Carburetion chamber”
The claim is that the buildings were morgues built to deal with a typhus epidemic. These morgues were later converted to air raid shelters when the epidemic was in abeyance and the threat of allied bombing had increased.. At the time of conversion they were fitted with standard gas-proof bomb shelter doors. I assume by “carburetion chamber” you are referring to the mysterious “gasskammer”. It sounds to me that this was some kind of generator, perhaps used to power lighting or to heat these buildings. That of course is pure speculation.
“Yes, there is, since it would imply that millions of people just vanished 'somewhere to the east”
As you well know Nick, revisionists dispute the demographic evidence. Your methodology seems to involve jumping between categories of evidence asserting their indisputability. If we were to get into a demographic argument you would quote “indisputable” evidence of mass-gassings in support of your demographic argument just as you are now citing “indisputable” demographic evidence in support of your claims of mass-gassings.
Voxceltica said...
>> “Except HCN is useless on bacteria”
> Zyklon was used to kill lice which, I would expect be found on the bodies and clothing of people who died of typhus.
Hmmm, so, you disinfect the bodies you are only going to cremate?
Wait, maybe the clothes are useful still. So, why not remove the clothes, and disinfect them in the already existing disinfection facilities? Why are morgues needed for this?
> These morgues were later converted to air raid shelters when the epidemic was in abeyance and the threat of allied bombing had increased.
While this was true in Auschwitz 1, the "morgues" weren't converted in Birkenau. (and, as opposed to one facility built in the main camp, Birkenau had 4. Think about the incredible inefficiency of these Germans -- that they had to build 4 morgue facilities with crematorium attached, while they tried fight this typhus outbreak. Can you believe that these same people developed Missles and Jet planes, and had that hard a time containing typhus?)
"Have you any idea how stupid you look making statements about my comprehension after posting tripe like that?"
Given that you're the dumb one here, who has been posting nothing but tripe, the above looks kinda ironic.
;-)
"As you well know Nick, revisionists dispute the demographic evidence. Your methodology seems to involve jumping between categories of evidence asserting their indisputability. If we were to get into a demographic argument you would quote “indisputable” evidence of mass-gassings in support of your demographic argument just as you are now citing “indisputable” demographic evidence in support of your claims of mass-gassings."
If we were to get into a demographic argument, you'd lose.
"Hmmm, so, you disinfect the bodies you are only going to cremate?"
So these corpses carried themselves into the morgues and marched into the cremation furnaces when they were called, closing the furnace doors behind them? Or did the cremation process involve hundreds of living humans who might easily contract and spread typhus from lice?
“So, why not remove the clothes, and disinfect them in the already existing disinfection facilities? Why are morgues needed for this?”
Let’s see, we’ve got substantial disinfection facilities suggesting that the Nazis were prepared for a mass outbreak of typhus. Why didn’t the Nazis build more morgues?
“Can you believe that these same people developed Missles and Jet planes, and had that hard a time containing typhus?”
Can you believe that a civilization that can send missions to Mars can’t cure AIDS and lives in fear of SARS?
“If we were to get into a demographic argument, you'd lose”
I’d put your willy back in your trousers and engage your brain if I were you.
Are you still claiming that Zyklon was used to combat bacterial infection BTW or was that a “Fort St Elmo” moment?
"So these corpses carried themselves into the morgues and marched into the cremation furnaces when they were called, closing the furnace doors behind them? Or did the cremation process involve hundreds of living humans who might easily contract and spread typhus from lice?"
So what does it have to do with delousing _morgues_, rather than people?
"Let’s see, we’ve got substantial disinfection facilities suggesting that the Nazis were prepared for a mass outbreak of typhus."
Or for influx of hundreds of thousands of deportees, whose stolen clothes had to be deloused.
"Why didn’t the Nazis build more morgues?"
Indeed, why? Because the crematoria were too powerful so the morgues were not needed, so they could be converted into undressing rooms and gas chambers (as proven by the documents)?
"Are you still claiming that Zyklon was used to combat bacterial infection BTW or was that a “Fort St Elmo” moment?"
Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?
"Are you still claiming that Zyklon was used to combat bacterial infection BTW or was that a “Fort St Elmo” moment?"
Bwahaha. Idiot has forgotten that I said HCN can't kill bacteria.
“Bwahaha. Idiot has forgotten that I said HCN can't kill bacteria”
“Idiot” apologises for that. The point you are so lamely trying to avoid is that Zyklon fumigation was used to kill the lice that spread typhus. Your refutation consisted of an irrelevant reference to bacteria. I hope you didn’t break a nail when you were scraping the bottom of that barrel Nick.
“So what does it have to do with delousing _morgues_, rather than people?”
It’s no more pointless to fumigate a morgue than it is to fumigate a barrack room.
“Or for influx of hundreds of thousands of deportees, whose stolen clothes had to be deloused”
And the reason that they had to be deloused was to prevent a mass outbreak of typhus.
“Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?”
I believe that I made a speculation about the word “Vergasungskeller”, but that statement’s mostly a very bad strawman attack. Poor work gentlemen!
Idiot: "“Idiot” apologises for that. The point you are so lamely trying to avoid is that Zyklon fumigation was used to kill the lice that spread typhus. Your refutation consisted of an irrelevant reference to bacteria. I hope you didn’t break a nail when you were scraping the bottom of that barrel Nick."
Well, you really are an idiot, because it is well known that lice immediately flee the human body upon death, and that fire purifies any possible remnants. Therefore, there is absolutely zero reason to fumigate a morgue for lice.
Idiot: "It’s no more pointless to fumigate a morgue than it is to fumigate a barrack room."
It's completely pointless. See above.
Idiot: "And the reason that they had to be deloused was to prevent a mass outbreak of typhus."
Are you aware how many delousing facilities were *additionally* constructed at Auschwitz-Birkenau? Thus, no need to install them in crematoria whatsoever.
Sergey: “Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?”
Idiot: "I believe that I made a speculation about the word “Vergasungskeller”, but that statement’s mostly a very bad strawman attack. Poor work gentlemen!"
Idiot shows his complete lack of familiarity with the documentation. Now, please explain why same facilities include 'disrobing cellars', 'gas chambers' and more. Please, come up with a scenario that can explain all of these documents coherently in such a way that your gas chamber denial can stand up. N.B. if you say the word forgery, you lose.
Good luck!
“Well, you really are an idiot, because it is well known that lice immediately flee the human body upon death, and that fire purifies any possible remnants. Therefore, there is absolutely zero reason to fumigate a morgue for lice”
Hmmm! “It is well known that lice immediately flee the human body upon death”. Is it? So they remain in clothes but don’t remain in the body or head hair of victims? They must have been some cleverass lice, I can just imagine the conversation: Louse No1, “hey! This guys dead, let’s jump”. Louse No2, “Calm down we’re in a fur collar not an arm pit”.
“fire purifies any possible remnants. Therefore, there is absolutely zero reason to fumigate a morgue for lice”
Yup! I’m sure it does Nicky, but could you explain to me how a fire in a crematorium would purify the morgue next door? Did the SS guards perform Nordic fire ceremonies in these buildings on every other tuseday? Are you actually thinking about what you are saying or is it just stream of consciousness stuff?
“if you say the word forgery, you lose”
Nicky is so confident that he has to delineate the parameters of the debate in order to weigh the odds in his favour.
Are you seriously trying to claim that the British and Russian secret services never forged (nope! I didn’t say the word) documents? Maybe you could help find these well-documented weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Nicky?
P.S Keep up the “Idiot” stuff it makes you look like the desperate zealot that you so obviously are.
Voxceltica said...
> So these corpses carried themselves into the morgues and marched into the cremation furnaces when they were called, closing the furnace doors behind them? Or did the cremation process involve hundreds of living humans who might easily contract and spread typhus from lice?
Interesting theory. So, you can also explain how the bodies brought themselves to the morgue, and more importantly, how clothing animated itself to be brought to the fumigation facility? Or did this not require "hundreds of living humans" as well?
> suggesting that the Nazis were prepared for a mass outbreak of typhus. Why didn’t the Nazis build more morgues?
Well, seeing as their facility could cremate the entire population of the camp in a few months, why might they need more?
And as for typhus ... interesting that it breeds in areas that are "known for bad living conditions and poor hygiene". Amazing the Nazi's could spend the time building the morgue and crematoria, but didn't seem to have the inclination to improve the hygiene to eliminate the disease.
Oh, and there was even a vaccine, and it is treatable, with chance of survival improving with early treatment.
So, with a mortality rate of 10-60% without early treatment, why did the Nazi's need enough cremation capacity to incenerate the entire population of the camp within about 3 months?
“Dead bodies don't make a tasty snack for lice. It's that simple”
Lice live on skin, sebaceous secretions and blood. Lice can survive without a living host for up to a week. The corpse of a typhus victim could be a significant source of infestation for some time after death.
“The biggest health-hazard in a morgue is not from lice, but from bacteria, and you don't, as repeatedly stressed, kill bacteria with HCN”
That’s right you use it to kill lice. Are you trying to say that the existence of fumigations against infestation prove that bacterial disinfection didn’t take place?
“The most curious thing is, *if* these places were actually morgues, how come the SS left a huge paper trail complaining about the lack of morgue space in Birkenau”
Your argument hinges on the fact that the SS didn’t need morgues because of the incineration capacity of the crematorium. If the SS wanted to process more bodies, why are they asking for more morgues and not for an extension of the cremation facilities?
“Bodies could be cremated together”
And would take longer to burn.
“All this aside, *if* the 'Leichenkeller' had been used as morgues, there would have been absolutely no point in disinfecting the morgues, and indeed every reason not to, with Zyklon”
Repetion, repetition, repetition.
“If you want to argue that the flow of bodies was diverted to the crematoria, e.g. because you're gullible enough to believe denier nonsense about slow cremation speeds, then you have caught yourself on the horns of a dilemma. If the cremation speeds were so slow that bodies had to be stored somewhere temporarily, then the morgues would have been in continuous use. Therefore, a delousing - underground in the case of Krema II and III - would have disrupted this for a minimum of 24 hours, since a lice-disinfestation takes that long”
The barracks with Zyklon deposits were in contiuous use. The HCN deposits could have accrued from periodic fumigations same as the barracks.
“Personally, I like corroboration”
“There isn't a single document spelling out that '100 bodies were stored here on Tuesday'”
There are no documents spelling out that 100 people were gassed here either. There is a document referring to an“entwesungsanlage”. You argument depends largely upon eyewitness testimony. The credibility of your argument rests upon the credibility of your witness testimony.
“The Soviets were no friends of the Jews after 1945”
They were still less kindly disposed towards the West and towards the Nazi regime. The Soviets were still trying to set Germany up to take the blame for the Katyn massacre and possibly others. That’s just another bullshit point.
“I don't think a slim PR dossier put together by Alastair Campbell equates to 80,000 pages of documentation from the Zentralbauleitung”
And all 80,000 pages expressly refer to mass extermination in gas chambers? Bollocks!
“That's the big secret behind this blog, you know. We don't write about antisemites and Holocaust deniers because we think they're dangerous”
I’m neither an anti-Semite nor a Holocaust denier. I am pro-Israel and I don’t have a problem with Jews. I think that something terrible happened to millions of Jews during WWII. I just like amusing myself with bumptious little pricks that keep falling over their own logic.
"I’m neither an anti-Semite nor a Holocaust denier. I am pro-Israel and I don’t have a problem with Jews. I think that something terrible happened to millions of Jews during WWII."
Changed your tune since March, when Deborah Lipstadt and Orac gave you a spanking, eh?
"Although I am not anti-semitic, your Jewish greed is overbearing and crippling. "
http://lipstadt.blogspot.com/2006/03/no-holds-barred-attack-on-me.html
That about sums up your ability to maintain simple logic, doesn't it? Start a sentence and contradict it by the end.
I'll leave the rest of your gimp noises until later. Or maybe someone else will be along to expose your fallacies.
You've ignored the comments from an anonymous reader, do you think you're exempt from answering criticisms?
Changed your tune since March, when Deborah Lipstadt and Orac gave you a spanking, eh? NT
"Although I am not anti-semitic, your Jewish greed is overbearing and crippling. "
Hellooo! That was a comment made in a letter to Deborah Lipstadt. Not a comment made by me. I’m sure Deborah will confirm that this letter never came from me if you ask her. The fact is that if you compare the spelling, grammar and overall tone of this letter it bears no relation to anything I have written, either on this blog, my blog or on Deborah Lipstadt’s blog. Nice try Sherlock, don’t give up the day job son.
Who is “Orac” supposed to be exactly? I had a brief exchange with a guy called Dave. You can say whatever you like about me being “spanked”. Dave actually admitted on another blog that I had “beat up on him”. Obviously I’m wrong and the discussion took place between “Orac” the mysterious, who naturally “beat up on me”.
A little tip Nicky, if you can’t be bothered to actually read the source you are quoting from, don’t post a link to that source so that everyone can confirm that you are talking nonsense.
I'm a bit drunk at the moment. More later.
"Changed your tune since March, when Deborah Lipstadt and Orac gave you a spanking, eh?"
You mean this Orac?
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2006/03/theyre_not_too_bright_are_they.php?utm_source=combined-feed&utm_medium=rss
“Voxceltica beat up on my answer to her”
Dave/David Lippman/kiwiwriter
That’s not a spanking Nicky, a spanking is what you are getting on your open forum thread.
>That’s not a spanking Nicky, a spanking is what you are getting on your open forum thread.
Ever heard of the Black Knight? This one: http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/grail-04.htm .
I’m asking because you remind me of the fellow. Of course you’re not alone in that; it’s a common attitude throughout your conspiraloon scene.
Hi Roberto.
As I explained before, you are only marginally more intelligent than Sirgay. I enjoy toying with borderline intellectuals like Nick Terry, but I find discussions with cognitive mediocrities boring. Say something clever and I might respond.
Voxceltica said...
> The barracks with Zyklon deposits were in contiuous use. The HCN deposits could have accrued from periodic fumigations same as the barracks.
(Nick mentioned the 24 hour fumigation window just prior to this).
But wait ... are these "periodic" fumigations, or are they constant? There is supposedly a constant flow of typhus victims here, so wouldn't these rooms need to be constantly rotated between in the ongoing fumigations?
> There are no documents spelling out that 100 people were gassed here either.
Funny thing though ... the Germans were massive documenters. While there would have been reason to destroy evidence of murder, evidence of death by disease would have no reason to not remain. Wouldn't there have been records of which inmates died, of what, and when they were in the morgue and when they were cremated?
> You argument depends largely upon eyewitness testimony. The credibility of your argument rests upon the credibility of your witness testimony.
Ah, yes, of course. Which would you like to tackle, the prisoner testimony or the SS guard's testimony? (We won't through in the records of all the people transported to the camp, which is still a bit of a hurdle, because something happened to them, even without the eyewitness testimony)
>Hi Roberto.
>As I explained before, you are only marginally more intelligent than Sirgay.
Thanks, the “Sirgay” thing suggests that you are not only marginally less intelligent than any of us.
>I enjoy toying with borderline intellectuals like Nick Terry, but I find discussions with cognitive >mediocrities boring. Say something clever and I might respond.
And the great intellectual’s lame attempt to run away behind smokescreen of hollow insults does nothing to improve that image.
Another thing: would the great intellectual, who just displayed his amazing intellect by calling my fellow contributor “Sirgay”, care to tell us his real name?
Or is he one of those very brave fellows who throw their manure only from behind the safety of an alias and a computer screen?
Chickenvox:
"It’s no more pointless to fumigate a morgue than it is to fumigate a barrack room."
Yes, it is pointless to fumigate a morgue, because it will be infested the next minute, unlick a barrack room.
"And the reason that they had to be deloused was to prevent a mass outbreak of typhus."
Which is a rather irrelevant point.
"I believe that I made a speculation about the word “Vergasungskeller”, but that statement’s mostly a very bad strawman attack. Poor work gentlemen!"
I repeat the question:
Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?
"Yup! I’m sure it does Nicky, but could you explain to me how a fire in a crematorium would purify the morgue next door?
Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the beig concrete room can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?
More importantly, how often the morgues were "purified"?
"Are you seriously trying to claim that the British and Russian secret services never forged (nope! I didn’t say the word) documents? Maybe you could help find these well-documented weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Nicky?"
Which documents forged by Russian and/or British were used to support WMD claims (which were based mostly on misinterpretation of authentic evidence)?
“Yes, it is pointless to fumigate a morgue, because it will be infested the next minute”
It will be infested the next minute? Hasn’t your friend Nicky just claimed that morgues would not be infested because lice quickly flee a dead host?
Didn’t he say this, “Well, you really are an idiot, because it is well known that lice immediately flee the human body upon death”
I’d suggest that you guys get your story straight and then I will demolish whichever argument you come up with. It’s not a lot of fun for me when you undermine each other’s arguments.
I see Chickenvox ran away from the questions and arguments, so here they are again, one slightly rephrased:
Chickenvox:
"It’s no more pointless to fumigate a morgue than it is to fumigate a barrack room."
Yes, it is pointless to fumigate a morgue, if it will be infested the next minute, unlike a barrack room.
"And the reason that they had to be deloused was to prevent a mass outbreak of typhus."
Which is a rather irrelevant point.
"I believe that I made a speculation about the word “Vergasungskeller”, but that statement’s mostly a very bad strawman attack. Poor work gentlemen!"
I repeat the question:
Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?
"Yup! I’m sure it does Nicky, but could you explain to me how a fire in a crematorium would purify the morgue next door?
Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the big concrete room can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?
More importantly, how often the morgues were "purified"?
"Are you seriously trying to claim that the British and Russian secret services never forged (nope! I didn’t say the word) documents? Maybe you could help find these well-documented weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Nicky?"
Which documents forged by Russian and/or British were used to support WMD claims (which were based mostly on misinterpretation of authentic evidence)?
“Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the big concrete room can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?”
Any number of reasons, if the death rates at Auschwitz were not constant there would be periods when these rooms were not in use as morgues. After sustained usage as a storage space for dead typhus victims I would deem it prudent to fumigate these rooms before their utilization for any other purpose.
“I don't think a slim PR dossier put together by Alastair Campbell equates to 80,000 pages of documentation from the Zentralbauleitung” Nick Terry.
“Which documents forged by Russian and/or British were used to support WMD claims (which were based mostly on misinterpretation of authentic evidence)?” Sergay Romanov.
“80,000 pages of documentation”
“misinterpretation of authentic evidence”
From the mouths of babes………..
Funny, I don't recall any intelligence agency using an 80,000 page Iraqi archive on which to base their assessments of WMDs before the invasion.
voxceltica said...
>“Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the big concrete room >can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?”
>Any number of reasons, if the death rates at Auschwitz were not constant there would be >periods when these rooms were not in use as morgues.
As what would they be used in the meantime, oh great intellectual?
>After sustained usage as a storage space for dead typhus victims I would deem it prudent to >fumigate these rooms before their utilization for any other purpose.
Fumigate against what type of vermin?
>“I don't think a slim PR dossier put together by Alastair Campbell equates to 80,000 pages of >documentation from the Zentralbauleitung” Nick Terry.
“Which documents forged by Russian and/or British were used to support WMD claims (which were based mostly on misinterpretation of authentic evidence)?” Sergay Romanov.
>“80,000 pages of documentation”
>“misinterpretation of authentic evidence”
>From the mouths of babes………..
Great intellectual seems to be out of arguments.
"Dave actually admitted on another blog that I had “beat up on him”"
Really?
What blog and what did I say? Please provide the link. I do not recall ever having said any such thing.
>"Dave actually admitted on another blog that I had “beat up on him”"
And that was the greatest experience of success the great intellectual ever had, right?
Accuracy of his claim provided, of course.
"So these corpses carried themselves into the morgues and marched into the cremation furnaces when they were called, closing the furnace doors behind them? Or did the cremation process involve hundreds of living humans who might easily contract and spread typhus from lice?"
Well, chickenvoxula, with your logic, anything is possible. But aside from that, the sonderkommandos had their hair cut by the SS which is a lice preventing measure. To throw the bodies in the crematoriums, the sonderkommando prisoners had to be in contact with each body for a short time, about 2 minutes, and during that time, the only physical contact established between the Sonderkommando prisoner and the corpse was by the hand(the SK prisoners dragged the bodies with their hands.)Of course, you have to multiply the 1.5-2 minutes per body by thousands but with a disease like typhus, I don't think that you'll get sick just from holding their hand. Now tell me, chickenvoxula, if you hold a person's(who is sick with typhus)hand as long as you want, will you get sick with typhus? No, you won't. Aside from that, the SK prisoners where working under a death sentence, the SS wouldn't build five huge morgues just to make sure that their prisoners(who where sentenced to die!)where safe. Please stop embarrassing yourself, chickenvoxula. From sobe aka aldo
PS do you need to make a blog to have an account here
Nicky, nice to hear from you again,
“Funny, I don't recall any intelligence agency using an 80,000 page Iraqi archive on which to base their assessments of WMDs before the invasion”
In both cases the enormity of the claim dictates the quantity of “evidence” required to convince, a fact that is rather obvious to anyone other than holocaust fundamentalists.
ME: Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the big concrete room can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?
CHICKENVOX: Any number of reasons, if the death rates at Auschwitz were not constant there would be periods when these rooms were not in use as morgues. After sustained usage as a storage space for dead typhus victims I would deem it prudent to fumigate these rooms before their utilization for any other purpose.
Since one cannot predict the death rates, the temporary "other uses" (which Chickenvox doesn't even specify) make no sense, as the morgues might have been needed at any moment.
Even if one would try to predict the death rates, that would be based on a rather long-term observations of a low number of corpses (say, 1 month). By that time there would be no sense whatsoever to fumigate the morgues.
Therefore, there is still no reason to "purify" the morgues.
I see Chickenvox once again ran away from most of the points:
Chickenvox:
"It’s no more pointless to fumigate a morgue than it is to fumigate a barrack room."
Yes, it is pointless to fumigate a morgue, if it will be infested the next minute, unlike a barrack room.
"And the reason that they had to be deloused was to prevent a mass outbreak of typhus."
Which is a rather irrelevant point.
"I believe that I made a speculation about the word “Vergasungskeller”, but that statement’s mostly a very bad strawman attack. Poor work gentlemen!"
I repeat the question:
Are you still claiming that the morgues designated as "Auskleidekeller", "Vergasungskeller" and "Gaskeller" were simply morgues?
"Yup! I’m sure it does Nicky, but could you explain to me how a fire in a crematorium would purify the morgue next door?
Why would anyone want to "purify" a morgue that will be infested (if the big concrete room can be infested at all, which it can't) the next moment, when new corspes will be brought in?
More importantly, how often the morgues were "purified"?
"Are you seriously trying to claim that the British and Russian secret services never forged (nope! I didn’t say the word) documents? Maybe you could help find these well-documented weapons of mass destruction in Iraq Nicky?"
Which documents forged by Russian and/or British were used to support WMD claims (which were based mostly on misinterpretation of authentic evidence)?
Sobe - "PS do you need to make a blog to have an account here"
No, you can register a Blogger profile w/o needing to run a blog.
Vox
>In both cases the enormity of the claim dictates the quantity of “evidence” required to >convince, a fact that is rather obvious to anyone other than holocaust fundamentalists.
By what rules or standards of historiography or criminal investigation you can show us is the required amount of evidence dictated by “the enormity of the claim”, and not by what is necessary to prove the “claim” beyond a reasonable doubt?
What historical events you have no doubts about (I presume it’s stuff like Stalin’s purges and penal camps, atrocities committed by Red Army troops against German POWs and civilians, atrocities committed against ethnic Germans during their postwar expulsion from Poland, Czechoslovakia and other countries of Eastern Europe, outrages committed against members of the “white race” in African countries, etc.) have been proven by the quantity of evidence you would require?
And how does this quantity of evidence differ from the quantity of evidence on which the historical record of the Nazis’ crimes against Jews and other undesirables is based?
“And how does this quantity of evidence differ from the quantity of evidence on which the historical record of the Nazis’ crimes against Jews and other undesirables is based?”
Ever noticed how contesting the evidence used to support the latter allegation can result in a severe beating at the hands of Jewish extremists or, in many European countries, imprisonment?
Ever noticed that 'revisionists' never answer questions directly put to them?
Vox:
Don't forget, you claimed a while back it's necessary to delouse the bodies for handling by the workers, but you never explained how the bodies got from where the people died to the morgue. We still have animated corpses somewhere here, until you fill in this detail.
>“And how does this quantity of evidence differ from the quantity of evidence on which the >historical record of the Nazis’ crimes against Jews and other undesirables is based?”
>Ever noticed how contesting the evidence used to support the latter allegation can result in a >severe beating at the hands of Jewish extremists or, in many European countries, >imprisonment?
Ever noticed that your cry-baby whining (a standard lame excuse that "Revisionists" come up with to "explain" the miserable results of their "research") has nothing to do with my question, which was about the quantity of evidence to events you deny on the one hand and events you accept on the other?
“Don't forget, you claimed a while back it's necessary to delouse the bodies for handling by the workers”
I didn’t say anything about delousing the bodies to protect handlers. I’m explicitly claiming that these fumigations were routine and carried out for the same reasons as the fumigations of other areas of the camp. You would know that, of course, if you had actually read this thread.
“Ever noticed that your cry-baby whining (a standard lame excuse that "Revisionists" come up with to "explain" the miserable results of their "research") has nothing to do with my question, which was about the quantity of evidence to events you deny on the one hand and events you accept on the other?”
So you’ve got a huge amount of crap evidence, instead of a “slim dossier” of crap evidence. Well done!
See the open thread for any further response.
"I’m explicitly claiming that these fumigations were routine"
Good. Chickenvox finally said something that can be nailed down.
Now, deniers whine about the absence of Prussian Blue in the morgues, and about the fact that cyanide concentrations there are rather low.
How so, if the "fumigations" were routine?
"carried out for the same reasons as the fumigations of other areas of the camp"
Other areas of the camp, of course, were not morgues, so the comparison is not valid. So, Chickenvox still can't explain the reason for routine fumigations of big empty concrete rooms.
>“Ever noticed that your cry-baby whining (a standard lame excuse that "Revisionists" come up >with to "explain" the miserable results of their "research") has nothing to do with my >question, which was about the quantity of evidence to events you deny on the one hand and >events you accept on the other?”
>So you’ve got a huge amount of crap evidence, instead of a “slim dossier” of crap evidence. >Well done!
So the great intellectual is reduced to spouting hollow bunk. And he seems to be losing his nerve, on top of that. Well done indeed! :)
Yeah, Muelenkamp, blah, blah, blah, all that remains is for you to post this thread where it will do me most damage. I’m still waiting.
>Yeah, Muelenkamp, blah, blah, blah,
Getting hysterical, great intellectual?
>all that remains is for you to post this thread where it will >do me most damage.
And where would that be, other than here? The RODOH forum, perhaps?
>I’m still waiting.
No, I’m still waiting for you to respond to my invitation to the RODOH forum. As an alternative, you can try to convince Mr. "Hannover", the moderator of the "Revisionist" forum we call the Cesspit(http://forum.codoh.com/viewforum.php?f=2) to let me post there again. Please keep us informed about his reply.
You can obviate the necessity for any more self-assertion of victory by linking this thread. I’m still waiting
Vox said:
I didn’t say anything about delousing the bodies to protect handlers. I’m explicitly claiming that these fumigations were routine and carried out for the same reasons as the fumigations of other areas of the camp. You would know that, of course, if you had actually read this thread.
Vox earlier said:
So these corpses carried themselves into the morgues and marched into the cremation furnaces when they were called, closing the furnace doors behind them? Or did the cremation process involve hundreds of living humans who might easily contract and spread typhus from lice?
I substituted "handlers" for "hundreds of living humans". Maybe you'd like to re-read the thread, and _then_ answer, or is this one of those famous "revisions" that revisionists are famous for?
Your theory still has bodies, about to be cremated, fumagated to remove the chance of disease. And if not to protect the handlers, or "hundreds of living humans", as you prefer, then why? I'm honestly wondering how these bodies get _from_ the place of death, or did they "carry themselves" to the morgue, when called?
>You can obviate the necessity for any more self-assertion of victory by linking this thread.
Good idea. Please ask "Hannover" at the CODOH "Revisionist" forum to link to this and other threads on our blog, and then show us his replies.
>I’m still waiting
Waiting for what? You should be asking good old "Hannover" to allow me to open an account and post on his CODOH "Revisionist" forum, from which I have been banned. The very least you might do is open a thread there linking to articles and/or discussions on this blog. Let’s see how long that thread lasts.
Ah, and it’s also incomprehensible why there’s still no news from you on RODOH, where you could be encouraging and mobilizing the "Revisionist" part of the forum community. I’m sure that neugierig, "ClaudiaRothenbach", k0nsl, truthseeker and other fun-lovers there would enthusiastically welcome your appearance. So what are you waiting for?
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