I Intend To Be Obscene

So if you don't like dirty language, then don't read the rest of this post.

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Jonnie Hargis does it again, proving that he is thoroughly without testicles, but at the same time showing such brass balls (on loan, one must suppose) that it literally stultifies the reader.

Today, in this thread about me, the shitstain actually had the nerve to say that, because Jim Condit said to me that he would be unable to get together to debate me until the spring, I am "weaseling out."

Oh, my fucking God. Does this guy have any ground to call anyone a weasel?

Let's go over the record once more, just to be God-damned sure what a fucking pussy we're dealing with when dealing with Jonnie A. Hargis of UCLA:

(1) He appears on the CODOH Forum seven years ago or so and is a moderator of the forum and a participant, thus rigging every debate so it appears as if he's the winner.

(2) When the CODOH Forum is updated a year or two later, Hargis, in a moment of stupidity that is not utter but does approach it, registers a Moderator account under the name "MaeDay" and puts as the name of this person "v. Hannover." When I find this out and confront former CODOH Moderator David Thomas (who hates Hargis) with this, Hargis is ousted as a moderator. I thoroughly spank him on a daily basis, and it is only through the grace of Ralph Marquardt (a.k.a. Cat Scan, another denier who hates Hargis) that his fat is occasionally pulled from the fire.

(3) Before I discover who "MaeDay" is, Jonnie "I Am Woman" Hargis tries to ban me from the new CODOH Forum before I am even able to register, whining to David Thomas that I have "no respect for Revisionism [sic]," which, of course, I don't. Thomas overrules him and Hargis gets his fucking panties in a bunch.

(4) Doing a bit of sleuth work and then trolling him in e-mail, Philip Mathews and I discover that "Hannover" is, in fact, Jonnie Hargis. When, on the day after the 9/11 attacks, Hargis is suspended from his job for what is probably the only protected speech act he ever committed in his miserable fucking life, I post a new article about this to the CODOH Forum. Once again, as the French say, Hargis's ass eats his underwear, and Marquardt removes the thread.

(5) Finally exasperating everyone, the CODOH Forum shuts down. Hargis convinces the immense coward (but not as big as Hargis) John Clive Ball to let him moderate the forum at air-photo.com. As one would expect, the "moderation" is heavy-handed and downright fucking fascistic.

(6) Eventually the air-photo forum is migrated to yourforum.org. Meanwhile, Scott Smith forms RODOH and many former CODOH Forum users begin posting there. When Hargis begins attacking us, like some fucking eunuch, from behind the walls of his Führerbunker, where he won't let any of us in, we expose him for who he is.

(7) In a lapse that can only be called gigantic, Fritz Berg admits to Scott Smith that Hargis is, in fact, Hannover.

(8) I am allowed into the yourforum Forum to debate until I make Hargis my bitch to such an extreme that he bans me -- again.

(9) Since then, he has not stopped baiting me from a place where I am banned from entering, and he still has not developed enough sack to admit that he is Hargis.

I'm willing to take nominations for the biggest fucking Nancy-boy on the Internet (and I mean this in no derogatory way to any of my homosexual friends and/or colleagues -- it's all about masculinity and not about sexual orientation), but I'm pretty sure Jonnie A. Hargis takes the cake.

And if you can find a bigger fucking weasel while you're at it, I'd love to hear all about it.

And let Jonnie Hargis be on warning that should I ever find myself in the Young Library at UCLA, I will be demanding an ad hoc debate on the Holocaust with Her Highness.

I'll tell you something: I don't believe in Hell, but a Jew-hating cowardly piece of shit like Hargis makes me long that there were...

My CODOH Posting Record

Apparently Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis no longer allows posts to be made about me during the week. Whatever. Coward that he is, he still posts about me on the weekends, and he still denies the Holocaust from his desk at UCLA.

So it goes.

Anyway, his two most recent posts about me can be read on this thread.

Point #1, should anyone be interested, I do intend on debating Jim Condit somewhere in the Philadelphia area in the spring.

Point #2, I looked over the posts by or about me that Hargis referenced in his post of October 22. Here they all are:

'Holo. Hist. Proj. rep. attempts to intimidate Bradley Smith'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3184

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis humidity/gassing canard'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2496

'holocaust' denial article by Andrew Mathis debunked here'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2816

'Prof. Mc Nally dissects HHP's Andrew Mathis' bogus article'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2841

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis on Zyklon scent removal'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2499

'Green, Mathis refuted / cyanide: lice, humans, & more'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

'Believer org. spokesman, Andrew Mathis, demolished in debate'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=254

'Holo. Hist. Proj.'s Andrew Mathis attempts damage control'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2498

'Email from Andrew Mathis (The Holocaust History Project)'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1526

'holocaust' History Project to unveil section on Treblinka'
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=280

So I checked them out, because I hadn't looked at them in a while. Here's what I see:

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(1) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=3184

Actually, I'm 100 percent correct on this point, as Hargis's recent lapse in posting about me during the work week has indicated.

(2) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2496

Here we get pointed to another CODOH thread:
http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

This thread was begun on November 24, 2002, when I was not allowed to post at CODOH by Hargis. I entered the thread on April 16, 2004, after "code yellow" expressed confusion (go figure) over the inconsistency of cyanide staining (something Dr. Green refuted conclusively in Leuchter, Rudolf & the Iron Blues). Hargis had only cited Rudolf. I wonder why?

So I jump in, with my post of Apr. 16, 2004, at 5:18 a.m. The first person to make a substantive response to me is "Claudia Rothenbach," who contests the notions that humidity would help the release of cyanide gas from Zyklon-B and that the Sonderkommando wore gas masks. I responded that Green, a physical chemist, disagreed on the first point and that Höss probably hadn't made a blanket statement. "Claudia" then insulted Dr. Green and referred to a German-language book on Höss.

(There is also my response to "code yellow" of April 16, 4:36 p.m., in which I point out that no one credible ever claimed over 12,000 gassed in one day at Auschwitz and that I even had my doubts about a number that high.)

My final post in the thread is in response to Hargis, who claims that Rudolf is right and Green is wrong. I concede on April 16 at 4:40 p.m. that we are at loggerheads and no further debate is going to be fruitful, so I exit the thread.

In other words, I followed the rules. But these idiots continued for another four full pages of responses after I'd gone. This is a "revisionist" victory?

(3) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2816

This is a thread on my article General Semantics and Holocaust Denial, in which I was not allowed to participate.

(4) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2841

The same thing happens here, though I do rip McNally a new anus here.

(5) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2499M

This is a link back go a thread we already dealt with: http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

Hargis comments on the wire-mesh columns as a lame rebuttal to me. I have copies of the requisition forms, however, as well as the response from DEGESCH.

(6) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=267

Again, a link to the same thread.

(7) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=254

Another post, this time extremely pathetically to a cherry-picked thread from the old CODOH forum, where Hargis did not moderate. But go to this thread. Do I lose?

My debate with Ralph Marquardt ("Cat Scan") ends inconclusively, I'd say. I basically ignore "Alacran." The rest is my debate with Hargis. Hargis remarks (how it's relevant to the thread, don't ask me): "Typical Auschwitz ‘witnesses’ Dov Paisikovic, states that the cremation of one body took about four minutes! - Leon Poliakov, Auschwitz, René Julliard, Paris 1964, p. 159 ff." This book is in French, and I'm quite sure Hargis never read it. I don't know the accuracy of the quote, but when I respond that "Standard commercial crematoria and the ovens of Auschwitz are not in any way comparable," Hargis dumbly counters, "Correct. Today's crematoria have higher capacities and work faster that the 1940s technology of A/B. I would certainly like to see 'evidence' to the contrary."

He could simply go to a funeral home. There are plenty in Los Angeles. When I put him to a yes or no question -- Are today's commercial crematory ovens built so that up to four bodies can be cremated at a time? -- he won't answer with a yes or no. Scott Smith of RODOH finally answers the question -- no, they are no comparable. Hargis finishes with the same sad bullshit story.

And this is one of his links to show that I'm a poor debater? Pardon my French, but Hargis is made to look like a fucking idiot here, and he's made to look so by me.

(6) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=2498

This points again to the thread in (5). We are offered Witold Pilecki, Primo Levi, and Rosa Robota as "credible witnesses" to 20,000 gassings in a day. Levi and Robota were never in Birkenau. Pitecki had escaped Auschwitz before this 20,000 claim had been made. Robota was dead. You can check all this using Hargis's own links. The man sinks his own arguments. Quite pathetic.

(7) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=1526

"Friedrich Braun" of Canada begins this tread. I had been re-banned by then.

Hargis responds with the old CODOH Forum thread above, where he is clearly pwn3d by me, and he says I engage in ad hominem and false claims and am "desperate." I think my own ad hominem claim was against Faurisson, and it's actually a true story. None of my claims is false, and I defy Hargis to prove otherwise.

(8) http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=280

Basically an attack on Yankel Wiernik and answered by myself, Roberto, and Sergey here.

This is Hargis's grand attack on me. What a pathetic old man.

By the way, isn't it a strange coincidence that "Goethe" posted the identical list? So did the late, lamented "Herr Flick" when he first came to RODOH. A sad bunch, tis true.

A Study in “White Pride” …

… is in progress here.

Update on 09.11.2006:

See also this article.

Open Thread

By TrueVoice's request, here's a thread to comment on the Cesspit (CODOH) stupidity.

Dropping the H-Bomb

One of the likely T-4 candidates from Jonnie Hargis's Führerbunker nevertheless posted an interesting article from today's Washington Post -- an article that hits on an issue that I find particularly interesting, i.e., Israel and its use of the Holocaust as a political football.

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I have a close associate who is Israeli, and let me say before talking about this article that he is scared shitless of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, and I don't blame him, as the only country in the region that could conceivably hurt Israel in any major way is Iran, and it's now led by a man who isn't fond of my friend's country. Of course, we know that Ahmadinejad has been poorly translated and that the Ayatollahs that run Iran have already issued a fatwa against using nuclear weapons offensively, but when Ahmadinejad lives around the corner and is not just a bugbear grinning stupidly on television now and then, I concede he can probably be a pretty scary guy.

On with the story: While Prime Minister Olmert and government minister Avi Dichter have both "dropped the H-Bomb," i.e., compared Ahmadinejad to Hitler, Ami Ayalon, a former head of the dreaded Shin Beth and, more recently, co-author of a peace proposal for Israel and the Palestinians with Sari Nusseibeh, former PLO representative for Jerusalem/Al-Quds, is suggesting that maybe this isn't the best tack to take.

Ayalon says, "In Israel, likening someone to a Nazi in theory creates both legitimacy for attacking him, and a moral imperative to do so . . . But when it comes to a complex strategic issue like Iran, our leadership is liable to talk itself into a corner. I say: If you're going to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

The other H-Bomb is, of course, the Holocaust and here the Post talks with Tom Segev, author of the canonical study of Israel and the Holocaust, The Seventh Million. And while Segev concedes that Ahmadinejad's saber-rattling makes him more of a possible target for Israel's military, "There are completely authentic Holocaust sensitivities as well as manipulations. Both exist in the Israeli psychology."

And the author of Israel and the Bomb, Avner Cohen, while admitting that Israel armed itself nuclearly in the 1960s because of the Holocaust, says, "But to prevent another Holocaust, Israel must be in a position to threaten a nuclear holocaust. There are many ironies here."

Indeed. But the biggest irony of all, it seems to me, is that a country that has made a tradition of Jews labeling other Jews "Hitler" over political disagreements (Segev records that David Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin, political arch-enemies, often referred to each other thus; and before he was assassinated, posters of Yitzhak Rabin in an SS uniform appeared across Israel), now feeling a perhaps genuine existential threat, may find itself in the situation of the boy crying wolf. How many times can you scream "Hitler" or "Holocaust" when the situation clearly does not merit it and still be taken seriously?

May I take my Jewish prerogative to criticize Israel with ahavat Am Yehudi? Israeli politicans, soldiers, and pundits should never drop the H-Bomb -- of any sort -- unless it is absolutely accurate or absolutely necessary.

Watch chickenshit liar Jonnie Hargis aka “Hannover” …

… getting his ass kicked here.

"Hannover" Hargis, the coward, threatens when he is safe

Yesterday, I posted this message to the Cesspit moderator Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, demanding satisfaction, in a man-to-man discussion at one of three places of his choice or by means of an apology, for his having called me «a pathetic and desparate liar».

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Of course I made sure that he took notice of it immediately, by sending him the following e-mail:

Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2006 11:56:50 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Guadalupe Salcedo" Add to Address Book Add Mobile Alert
Subject: A message to Jonni "Hannover" Hargis
To: jhargis@library.ucla.edu , hannover@flashmail.com

Hi Mr. Hargis,

Just so you don’t miss it:

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/10/message-to-jonnie-hannover-hargis.html

http://p102.ezboard.com/frodohforumfrm18.showMessage?topicID=161.topic

If you should choose alternative # 3, please let me know by return mail.

Roberto Muehlenkamp

If I received a message like that – and I’m sure my fellow contributors and our readers think the same – I would go to this blog, to the RODOH forum or to both, and either try to justify my statements towards the person I attacked, or humbly apologize for them. Or I would at the very least invite the sender to a man-to-man discussion on my own forum. That’s what an upright man is expected to do.

Of course Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis is not an upright man. He is not only a filthy liar, but also a fathomless coward who, upon receiving such a message, will do exactly what, according to the German poet Goethe whose name is used as a handle by one of the Cesspit’s posters, a coward tends to do: utter threats and throw manure from where he feels safe, i.e. his discussion forum from which I was banned after seeing a number of my posts deleted on account of their inconvenient contents.

Hargis does this in a way that is characteristic of his hysteria, cowardice and lack of intelligence, by digging out old threads from the former CODOH discussion forum where I was supposedly beaten in discussion and letting loose some of his bullshit rhetoric about how my supposed defeat again showed that «science» prevails over «‘holocaust’ lies», etc. Nothing we haven’t seen before.

Today he has, after changing their titles, reactivated two threads that were last posted on more than three years ago, which I shall hereinafter call Thread 1 and Thread 2. Both refer to threads of the former CODOH discussion forum on which I was allegedly "debunked" or "shredded", the thread "Claimed cremation patent / 3.5 kg of coke" in the case of Thread 1 and the thread "Gassings" in the case of Thread 2.

Let us now look at how I was "debunked" on the former thread and "shredded" on the latter. If you read the threads as shown under the links provided by "Hannover", it looks like I bowed to my "Revisionist" opponents’ superior arguments and withdrew from the discussion, which is what "Hannover" would like his readers to believe. Of course that’s not how it was, and "Hannover" knows it very well. What happened in both cases was that my responses to my opponent’s latest posts were withheld by the moderator, and thus the discussion was "won" for the "Revisionist" side by silencing the opposition. Fortunately I have kept records of my censored posts, which I will show hereafter.

On the former CODOH forum's thread "Claimed cremation patent / 3.5 kg of coke", referred to in Thread 1, the following message of mine, posted in response to message # 3 by "Cat Scan" (= Ralph Marquardt, one of the more reasonable and knowledgeable "Revisionists", a far cry from the sorry Mr. Hargis from whose equally sorry forum he is conspicuously and understandably absent), never saw the light of day:

1. The crematoria at Auschwitz and Birkenau were not typical cremation ovens, but heavy-duty industrial ovens designed to run continuously, using the heat energy produced by the burning of previous bodies to keep the oven hot for the next bodies. After they were fired with coke to their proper operating temperature, they required little or no extra fuel to operate. A considerable but well-documented technical achievement. The cremation unit that one muffle was supposed to handle in a given time was a weight unit, which means that one or several persons adding up to that weight unit could be put into each muffle simultaneously without increasing the cremation time. Unlike in crematoria ovens used for civilian purposes, there was no need to wait for one body to have cremated completely. The practice actually was to put the next body or bodies in the muffle before the cremation process of the previous was complete.

2. The patent application was for multi-muffle ovens similar to those supplied for Auschwitz-Birkenau and working according to the same principles, the outstanding features of the patent being:
i) the method of employing fat corpses to speed up the rate at which corpses could be burned and
ii) the fact that no fuel was required after the initial pre-heating period, because of the amount of heat generated by the burning corpses.
This was how the manufacturers described their own product in a patent application. The use of the ovens, as described by eyewitness Henryk Tauber, coincides with this description:
"<…>
The corpses of ... wasted people with no fat burned rapidly in the side muffles and slowly in the center one. Conversely the corpses of people gassed on arrival, not being wasted, burned better in the center muffle. During the incineration of such corpses, we used the coke only to light the fire of the furnace initially, for fatty corpses burned of their own accord thanks to the combustion of the body fat.
<…>"
Tauber also mentioned that when a “fat” body "was charged into a hot furnace, fat immediately began to flow into the ash bin, where it caught fire and started the combustion of the body." Similar descriptions of the burning process were made by Filip Müller and camp commander Rudolf Höß.
The fire thus actually needed no tending of its own, in accordance with the description in the patent application, external fuel supply (coke) being required only to heat up the oven.

3. Several witnesses testified to the placing of two or three bodies at a time in each muffle being not occasional attempts, but standard procedure. Sonderkommando Filip Müller stated that three or four could be incinerated at a time. Sonderkommando Szlama Dragon testified that three bodies were incinerated at a time. Two prisoners who escaped in April 1944, whose report was based on information received from Sonderkommandos, stated that three bodies would be burned at a time. Mieczyslaw Morawa, a worker in the crematoria, testified that tests done on the Birkenau crematoria before they became fully operational showed that three bodies could be simultaneously burned in a period of 40 minutes in each of the 15 ovens in Krema II. He stated that these tests were conducted with a stopwatch by the SS. The latter testimonial suggests that, while multiple burnings may take longer than single burnings (40 minutes vs. 25 minutes, taking the Gusen figures for single burnings), the time taken by the former is by no means the time taken by the latter multiplied by the number of bodies. Morawa’s testimonial also points to the plausibility of the burning speed calculated on the basis of the already mentioned Bauleitung document.

4. As we have seen, the manufacturers’ patent application and the testimonials of surviving crematoria operators mention external heating by coke to have been necessary only at the beginning of the cremation process, never thereafter. There is no evidence that additional external heating was required at the end of the cremation process to complete it – the fuel supplied by the bodies themselves seems to have been enough. Additional external heating at the end of the cremation process may be a concern in crematoria for conventional body disposal in civilian life. It is not a concern with heavy-duty industrial furnaces burning large numbers of bodies on a continuous basis.

5. The scientific data from the British Cremation Society obviously refer to conventional crematoria, not to heavy-duty industrial furnaces. However, they show that even with conventional furnaces, most of the cremation is complete after 30 minutes (the body reduced to the size of a football), which means that the next body or bodies can be introduced before the first has been fully cremated. The instructions for the Topf double muffle furnaces at Gusen envisaged that a body would be added into the oven during the last twenty minutes that it took to fully cremate the corpse that had been previously inserted, and there is evidence that this procedure was applied both at the Gusen and AB crematoria. Add to that the above mentioned practice of introducing several bodies at a time in certain combinations at the AB crematoria, and the average of 15 minutes indicated in the Bauleitung document appears far more compatible with the data from the British Cremation Society than it seems at first glance.

6. I know of no indication that the letter from the Bauleitung dated June 28, 1943 is a forgery. Who is the forger supposed to have been, when and how is the forgery supposed to have been made? The same applies to the information on the fuel efficiency of the triple and eight muffle ovens provided to the Bauleitung by Topf on March 17, 1943, where it is estimated that, if used on a continuous basis, the three muffle ovens of Kremas II and III would each use 2,800 kilograms of coke in a period of twelve hours, whereas the eight muffle ovens of Kremas IV and V would use only 1,120 kilograms of coke in the same period.

7. Adding the fuel consumption of the four crematoria according to Topf’s above mentioned memo (2 x 2,800 + 2 x 1,120 = 7,840 kg) and dividing that figure by the number of people that could be cremated in a twelve hour period according to the Bauleitung letter of June 28, 1943(4,416 ./. 2 = 2,208), which seems to be realistic according to the above, we arrive at an average of 3.5507 kg of coke per body. The result of a remarkable technical achievement by the manufacturers, acknowledged as such by the AB Bauleitung.

This post, according to my records, was first sent on 27.06.2001 at 18:56 hours GMT. When it did not appear on the thread, I sent it again on 28.06.2001 at 09:06 hours GMT. When it again did not appear, I knew what had happened: obviously concerned that my arguments might give my opponent too much trouble, the moderator (possible "Hannover" himself) had retained my post. As our readers may appreciate, this cannot have been due to any personal attacks or other violations of posting guidelines, for the post was soberly worded and contained nothing other than arguments on the subject under discussion.

On the CODOh thread "Gassings", mentioned in Thread 2, I responded to post # 10 by "Cat Scan" as follows:

1. The claim that the walls were washed subsequent to gassings comes from eyewitnesses. Eyewitnesses are an acknowledged source of forensic evidence. The only other imaginable source would have been statements from perpetrators.

2. This is what the eyewitnesses stated:

Henry Tauber:
“The water tap was in the corridor and a rubber hose was run from it to wash the floor of the gas chamber...”

Filip Müller
“Normally the concrete floors in the gas chamber as well as in the changing room were damp: today they were carefully dried....”
Nyszili:
“The Sonderkommando squad, outfitted with large rubber boots, lined up around the hill of bodies and flooded it with powerful jets of water. This was necessary because the final act of those who die by drowning or by gas is an involuntary defecation....”

Daniel Bennahmias:
“Once the gas chamber had been cleared, it must be hosed free of all traces of blood and excrement - but mainly blood - and then it must be whitewashed with a quick drying paint. This step is crucial, and it is done each time the gas chamber is emptied, for the dying have scratched and gouged the walls in their death throes. The walls are embedded with blood and bits of flesh, and none on the next transport must suspect that he is walking into anything other than a shower. This takes two or three hours.”

Whether the walls or the ceiling were washed is without importance. What matters is that the hosing of the gas chambers increased the level of humidity in the chambers so much that the equilibrium concentration of CN- ions necessary to the formation of blue staining, if reached at all during the gassings, turned into a concentration too low to allow for the formation of iron blues. According to Alich et al, the formation of Prussian blue from dilutions of iron and iron cyanide took 2 days and addition of as little as 13% water (by volume) caused the complex from which iron blues could form to decompose.

3. The washing of the walls is only one factor inhibiting the reaction that produces iron blues. Others were the comparatively small quantity of HCN not inhaled by the victims and the reduction of pH due to the exhalation of CO2, as explained. Still another conditioning was the suitability of the brickwork to the formation of HCN.

4. The accuracy of Nyiszli’s statement that the bodies and floor were washed immediately after gassing (whether the walls and the ceiling were is irrelevant, see above) have not been questioned by any serious historian or criminal justice authority that I know of. If he had incorrectly observed another detail that doesn’t mean he could not have correctly registered the one in question.

5. As the formation of Prussian blue takes a certain time (two days, according to Alich et al) during which the reaction is susceptible to being hindered by a number of factors, it is irrelevant whether the bodies were taken out of the chamber for burning immediately after gassing. According to Szlama Dragon, who worked in Krema V, the bodies were taken through a corridor to the undressing room and then through another corridor to the crematoria ovens. In the first corridor the hair of the women was cut off, in the second dentists tore out gold teeth. Drawings of the various crematoria show the undressing rooms to have had roughly the same size as the gas chambers, which means that the bodies could be removed from the chambers rather quickly and that lack of storage room was not an impediment. As to Krema II, Prüfer’s letter or 29.01.1943 and Bischoff’’s letter of the same day mention two rooms, the “Leichenkeller 1” which Bischoff carelessly called by its proper name “Vergasungskeller”, and the “Leichenkeller 2”. A drawing of the Krematorium II from the Zentralbauleitung actually shows three “Leichenkeller” ( LK) roughly the same size, plus a rather huge corridor (“Gang”) and an anteroom to LK 1. Another drawing shows LK2 to have been roughly the same size as LK1 and LK3, the anteroom and the area in front of the crematoria ovens together to have been roughly the same size as LK1. which means that bodies could comfortably be stored in the three rooms while awaiting burning even if LK2 was not used for this purpose. Thus the removal of bodies from the gas chambers was not restricted by the cremation capacity.

The above leads us to the conclusion that there is every reason to believe that bodies were moved from the gas chambers long before burning.

6. Cremation didn’t take 1 hour per person, but actually only a quarter of that time, ca. 15 minutes per body, because the bodies were not in coffins and several bodies were introduced simultaneously into each oven, according to the testimonials of various witnesses – a rather plausible practice according to scientific assessments. Mieczyslaw Morawa, a worker in the crematoria, testified that tests done on the Birkenau crematoria before they became fully operational showed that three bodies could be simultaneously burned in a period of 40 minutes in each of the 15 ovens in Krema II. He stated that these tests were conducted with a stopwatch by the SS.

This means that cremation of all the bodies would take no more than 33 hours, 15 hours less than the time required for the formation of Prussian blue according to Alich et al. This in turn means that, even if the bodies were removed from the gas chamber only as fast as they could be burned and the hosing of the chamber was only performed after all bodies were out, the excess moisture created by the hosing would impede the reaction leading to the formation of Prussian blue. As we have seen, it was neither necessary nor practical to take the bodies out of the chamber only at the pace at which they could be immediately burned, which means that the chamber would be clear some time before the last body had been cremated. This in turn leads to the conclusion that, even if hosing took place only after removal of the bodies and not before as Nyszili tells us, it would have occurred only a few hours after the end of the gassing – the time it took to move to bodies to the anteroom of LK1, LK3 and the anteroom of the crematoria ovens in Krema II or via the undressing room to the Krema ovens in Krema V. The procedure in the latter actually makes it seem likely that hosing was performed before and not after removal of the bodies, in accordance with Nyszili’s description, so as to avoid soiling the undressing room.

7. As we have seen, the conditions in the gassing chambers were unfavorable to the formation of Prussian blue not only due to the hosing after the gassings. Another factor was the CO2 exhaled by the victims and the resulting reduction of pH inhibiting the reaction and leading to a greater dilution of the CN- ions at the outset. Another was the fact that, even if the amounts used for both gassing and delousing were roughly equal, most of the gas would be absorbed by the victims in the former case. According to the statements of both perpetrators and surviving witnesses, only those standing next to the introduction columns inhaled a quantity of Zyklon B high enough for immediate death, whereas the others took up to 15 or 20 minutes to die, trying to scramble away from the places where the gas accumulated, climbing on top of each other to reach the higher areas where the gas would arrive last and thus prolong their lives for a few minutes, breathing heavily all the time and thus inhaling high amounts of gas before dying. What gas was left between the bodies would leave the chamber when the doors where opened or be ventilated out. Altogether, the gas not absorbed by the victims would be in contact with the walls for an hour at most, and only such HCN that melted into the moisture during that time would have a chance to from iron blues at all – a reaction inhibited by several factors, as we have seen. In the delousing chambers, conditions for formation of Prussian blue were unequally better. Much less of the gas was absorbed by the insects, which do not inhale, and the rest – i.e. most of the gas introduced – was in contact with the walls for up to 24 hours at a time. Moisture is likely to have been just enough to allow for an equilibrium concentration of CN-, there was no hosing after the gassings, and there was no CO2 to reduce the pH level and thus to inhibit the reaction. Thus it is not surprising that Prussian blue stains formed in the delousing chambers but not in the homicidal gas chambers.

8. The Polish investigators deliberately excluded samples with Prussian blue from their investigation for the reasons explained. Where Prussian blue formed in a building exposed to hydrogen cyanide, it would remain present at high concentration while other compounds of cyanide would gradually weather away. This means that samples with Prussian blue originally exposed to the same amount of HCN as samples without Prussian blue would necessarily contain a much higher concentration of cyanide residues than the latter and that comparing one and the other could therefore provide no telling results as to the extent to which either had been exposed to HCN. An apples and oranges comparison that the Polish investigators cleverly avoided by excluding samples with Prussian blue from their investigations.

9. The samples of the 1990 study were taken from parts of the ruins that had been very much exposed to weathering conditions - rinsed rather thoroughly by a column of water at least 35 m in height, according to the IFRC study – and from which all traces of hydrogen cyanide had consequently disappeared. These samples, however, were inadequate for comparison with samples from the delousing chambers because the latter had been exposed to altogether different conditions – the chambers being intact, the samples had been much less exposed to the weather. For their second experiment, Markiewicz et al accordingly chose to collect samples from such parts of the ruins that had been most sheltered from the weather and where conditions similar to those of the delousing chambers had therefore prevailed. No scientific fraud here, only an improvement of methodology.

10. The samples collected in 1990 had zero values due to the reasons explained above. The samples from buildings used for neither delousing nor gassing had zero values due to other reasons – they had been exposed to HCN only once if at all, during a disinfestation in the course of the 1942 typhus epidemic. Oddly enough, Leuchter falsely attributed the residues he detected in the gassing chambers to that very disinfestation.

11. The higher the concentration of HCN to which a wall was exposed for a longer period of time, the more HCN is likely to remain after 45 or 50 years under given conditions. The key finding made by Markewiecz et al in their 1994 experiment was that the samples taken from the ruins of the homicidal gas chambers showed concentrations of CN- ions not much lower than those samples from delousing facilities that were exposed to similar if somewhat but not much more favorable conditions of weathering – those without Prussian blue. It being undisputed that the delousing facilities were exposed to high amounts of HCN over a longer period of time, this means that the homicidal gas chambers were exposed to equally high or not much lower amounts. Exposure to HCN on one or two occasions would not have led to such concentrations – to argue this calls for an explanation why, then, the samples from the delousing chambers showed CN- concentrations not much higher than those from the gassing chambers. If the gassing chambers had been exposed to the same quantities of HCN as the delousing chambers for a similar period of time (i.e. up to 24 hours in a row) they would have shown even more similar concentrations of HCN but no blue stains, due to the reasons explained above. As it was, the gassing chambers, unlike the delousing chambers, were never exposed to massive concentrations of cyanides for over 24 hours a day – we have seen that the gas remained in the chambers for about an hour during and after the gassings. This, together with the somewhat stronger exposure to weathering of even the most sheltered parts of the ruins, explains why the residues found in the gassing chambers were not as high as those found in such parts of the delousing chambers exposed to similar conditions before and after.

12. So the situation we have is that the barely detectable traces of cyanides in the homicidal gas chambers are in the order of magnitude of the also barely detectable traces found in those parts of the delousing chambers without blue stains. This means that the gassing chambers were exposed to similar quantities of HCN as the delousing chambers – quantities compatible with the knowledge drawn from other conclusive evidence that over one million people were gassed at Auschwitz-Birkenau.

The above-quoted message was posted on the "Gassings" thread on 26.06.2001 at 19:46 hours GMT.

It was retained by the moderator and again posted on 27.06.2001 at 08:54 hours GMT.

It was again retained by the moderator and again posted on 27.06.2001 at 15:24 hours GMT.

It was once more retained by the moderator and posted a last time on 28.06.2001 at 09:12 hours GMT.

After the fourth attempt, I decided that either Mr. Marquardt (who was also a moderator of this CODOH forum for some time) didn’t want to discuss the issue with me any further, or then another moderator of the same forum (possible "Hannover") had decided to disallow my message. Again, the obvious reason for this, considering the quality of my arguments and the absence of any guidelines violations therein, was that someone on that forum’s moderating board had realized that my post would give the "Revisionist" side much trouble, and that if I continued in the discussion the same might (horrors!) end with the last word in a discussion on a "Revisionist" forum belonging to a critic of "Revisionism". Although the forum was hosted by an organization that calls itself the "Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust", the censoring moderator obviously decided to sacrifice the open debate and free speech that his host promised to making believe that "Revisionism" had once again triumphed over whatever those true believers call the elementary reason and logic that keeps their opponents from adhering to their articles of faith. Needless to say, I didn’t bother to respond to "Karl" on the thread in question after this censorship experience. I didn’t have the time to work for the ether.

Such censorship, contrary as it is to the proclaimed goals and principles of CODOH, was applied against me not once but on several occasions before and after the one mentioned above, about which I may tell our audience in the future. This makes poor Mr. Hargis’ attempts to exhibit threads from the former CODOH discussion forum as showpieces of "Revisionist" triumph seem rather grotesque, and suggests that the fellow, apart from being a miserable coward and an altogether disgusting character, also possesses a somewhat limited intelligence. Whoever besides myself has opposed "Revisionism" on the former CODOH discussion forum and/or the current Cesspit, like my fellow contributors Andrew Mathis and Sergey Romanov, knows that the "Revisionist" keepers of the Faith can prevail in a discussion against knowledgeable opponents only by stifling them through censorship and eventual banning. Without deleting inconvenient opposition posts and/or banning the "offenders", no such forum would remain a realm of "Revisionist" gospel for very long – an intolerable situation for the followers of a quasi-religious sectarian movement. Accordingly, censorship on the Cesspit has reached levels that make Jonni "Hannover" Hargis the chief subject and main joke of the RODOH Forum’s Memory Hole section.

The challenge stated in my message to Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis remains standing, and as the fellow reacted in the expected miserable manner, I hereby add another:

Let’s continue discussing the issues of the threads on which you claim I was "debunked" or "shredded", Mr. Hargis. RODOH or your Cesspit, you choose. In the former case I look forward to your posting there, in the latter to an e-mail from you informing me that my account has been reactivated or I that can open an account under my Christian name or as "Cortagravatas" and post there without being subject to your cowardly censorship.

Be a man once in your lifetime, Mr. Hargis.

This RODOH thread links to the present article.

Why Jonnie Hargis is a pathetic and desperate liar

Jonnie Hargis may be known to some as an UCLA librarian (or an assistant librarian; or whatever) who has been suspended for several days without pay for writing an anti-Israel message from his workplace. He has even appeared on Democracy Now.

Jonnie is also known for being an iron-fisted dictator Hannover at the Cesspit. Finally, he is rather known for denying that he and Hannover are one and the same person.

It is rather simple to prove that Jonnie is a pathetic and desperate liar.

Just read carefully the following e-mail messages, which I have received personally.

Read more!

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for multiple; Fri, 30 Apr 2004 02:08:39 -0700
Sender: hannover@flashmail.com
From: "hannover@flashmail.com"
Reply-to: hannover@flashmail.com
To: Scott Smith [e-mail omitted],"Andrew E. Mathis" [e-mail omitted], hannover@flashmail.com
Cc: [Mike Curtis' e-mail omitted], [easterntennissee e-mail omitted], [studio13 e-mail omitted]], [Wilfried Heink's e-mail omitted], [Richard Murphy's e-mail omitted], [my e-mail omitted]
Subject: Re: server status
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Poor Scott, clueless & duped, says & does what he's told ...
like a good boy.

How funny is this. I, we, they are not Hargis and Fritz Berg has been spoken to personally and he never said any such thing, as there is no way he could have.

From what I have come to understand though, Mr. Hargis has plenty on Andy Mathis:

- many, many recorded harassing calls & threats to Hargis's home & work...all archived

- friends of Hargis that Andy called & harassed and who will gladly testify against Andy

- tons of obscene, threatening emails to Hargis....all archived

- police reports made by Hargis against Andy

- police warnings to Andy

- the police have copies of all calls & emails

- there's even more

Apparently Mr. Hargis is quite prepared for all eventualities.

Scott is upset because his sponsor pulled the plug on his hate filled shill site. You should see the email he sent to Scott..oy! And, Scott the Used, must now pay out of pocket for his embarrassing site after blowing his credibility.

By the way, come to:
http://www.yourforum.org/revforum
and read as Andy Mathis and his silly anti-science nonsense is demolished in thread after thread, it's a rout.
Revisionists win hands down.

Cheers all, Hannover

Here, there, & everywhere. :-)

>
> << (3) Fritz Berg admitted to one of the recipients of this e-mail
> that Hargis is Hannover.>>
>
> True, but I already knew that. I thought everybody did from the old
> CODOH bbs.
>
> ~Scott
>

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29 Apr 2004 11:14:45 -0700
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2004 11:14:45 -0700
From: jhargis@library.ucla.edu
Subject: Re: server status
To: "Andrew E. Mathis" [e-mail omitted]
Cc: hannover@flashmail.com, [Scott's e-mail omitted], [Mike Curtis' e-mail omitted], [easterntennissee at yahoo e-mail omitted], [studio13 e-mail omitted], [Wilfried Heink's e-mail omitted], [Richard Murphy's e-mail omitted], [my e-mail omitted], [Andrew's e-mail omitted]
Message-id: <5bd15e5bc2c9.5bc2c95bd15e@library.ucla.edu>
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Call made to UCLA Police about this weirdo, and email forwarded to them per their request.
- JH


----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew E. Mathis" [e-mail cut]
Date: Thursday, April 29, 2004 10:52 am
Subject: Re: server status

> Yawn:
>
> And here's the IP address that poor, dumb Jonnie just wrote from:
>
> host-a44310bc.library.ucla.edu (164.67.16.188)
>
> 164.67.0.0 - 164.67.255.255
> University of California, Los Angeles
> UCLA Communications Technology Services Campus Services Building I,
> 2nd Floor
> 741 Charles E. Young Drive South
> Los Angeles, CA
> US
>
> Irrefutable facts:
>
> (1) Jonnie A. Hargis works at the UCLA library:
>
> http://www.library.ucla.edu/libraries/yrl/referenc/staff.htm
>
> (2) Jonnie A. Hargis signed an e-mail sent from
> jhargis@library.ucla.edu to the Upstream mailing list as "Hannover."
>
> While Hargis has successfully had this post removed, it was archived
> four years ago when first discovered.
>
> (3) Fritz Berg admitted to one of the recipients of this e-mail that
> Hargis is Hannover.
>
> (4) Notice the style similarities between these two URLs, first by
> Hargis:
> http://www.dailybruin.ucla.edu/db/articles.asp?ID=14416
>
> "Just saying so does not make it true."
>
> Second by "Hannover":
>
> http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=254&highlight=
>
> "Just saying so doesn't make it so."
>
> http://revforum.yourforum.org/viewtopic.php?t=596&highlight=
>
> "Just saying so doesn't make it so."
>
> Such a similar writing style!
>
> Conclusion: Does anyone seriously doubt that Hannover is really Jonnie
> A. Hargis?
> Or that the "moderator" at RevForum is also he?
>
> Sorry, Jonnie.
>
> a.m.
>

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From: "hannover@flashmail.com"
Reply-to: hannover@flashmail.com
To: "Andrew E. Mathis" [e-mail omitted], [Scott's e-mail omitted]
Cc: [Mike Curtis' e-mail omitted], [easterntennissee at yahoo e-mail omitted], [studio13 e-mail omitted], [Wilfried Heink's e-mail omitted], [Richard Murphy's e-mail omitted], [my e-mail omitted], [Andrew's e-mail omitted]
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Same old delusional nonsense from the desperate. Yawn, snore.

The 'holocau$t', falling apart faster than a cheap suit

- Hannover

> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 10:09:56 -0700 (PDT), Scott Smith
> wrote:
>
> > Also, Hannover's old webmaster was letting me host documents at his
> > site www.rodoh.org for free and he pulled the plug on us because
> > Andrew threatened to publicize Sailor's personal information.
>
> What an incredible flock of pussies.
>
> > Although I strongly disapprove of indiscretion with someone's
> > personal information, it doesn't have anything to do with RODOH and
> > is between Andrew and the Revisionist Forum.
>
> This is definitely true.
>
> Screw Hargis and Eschen. I'm throwing them to the wolves.
> I'll be sure to let everyone know that it was that Swedish idiot Rev.
> Kalle's reaction that pushed me over the line.
>
> I'm going by way of soc.culture.jewish, by the way, not
> alt.revisionism. I'll let the Jews of California do with Hargis and
> Eschen's information what they will. I wonder how they'll feel knowing
> that a California state employee spends his work hours denying the
> Holocaust? I wonder how they'll react to knowing that a German emigré
> is in
their
> midst and that Holocaust denial is his favorite pasttime?
>
> Lesson: Don't do this kind of thing on the Internet and be stupid
> enough to have a listed phone number. Don Black sent out my personal
> info on STORMFRONT-L ten years ago, and I haven't been listed since.
>
> a.m.

Quod erat demonstrandum

A message to Jonnie “Hannover” Hargis

Mr. Hargis,

I hear you have again been mouthing off about me, calling me "a pathetic and desparate liar".

Read more!


As you may understand, I don’t like being called names by a coward who hides behind and alias and consistently refuses to discuss his "Revisionist" horseshit in open debate.

To be sure, I have also called you and will keep on calling you a liar and a coward. But there’s a difference between my applying these designations to you and you calling me names. The difference is that my statements are accurate and appropriate.

You are a liar not necessarily because you spout "Revisionist" nonsense, because one might give you the benefit of doubt that you honestly believe your own BS, however much imbecility that would require. You are a liar because you rig discussions on your discussion forum, which we here call the Cesspit, by deleting opposition posts and/or banning opposition posters when they become too troublesome for the "Revisionist" side, in order to make it look as if that side has the stronger arguments and occasionally claim that opposition posters like myself have been "demolished". Anyone in doubt about your censorship practices need only look up the Memory Hole section of the RODOH Forum (where this message has also been posted), including but by no means limited to the threads For Roberto and The Memory Hole Festival goes on ..., which document my latest posting experience on your charming forum. Leadfoot Jonnie and his "delete" pedal has become a standing joke on RODOH, and you’re a popular joke on this blog as well.

What makes you a liar also makes you a coward, true to Goethe’s phrase that «The coward threatens when he is safe», which one of the posters at your forum by the handle of "Goethe" (presumably yourself) uses as a custom signature. And your forum is your warm and cozy Führerbunker, which you never dare to leave in order to discuss your ideas in the cold and hostile world of open debate. You furthermore keep denying your identity, although that is more than obvious (ask Andrew Mathis for the details).

But I’ll give you another chance (as you know, I have challenged you to meet me in open debate before) to improve your miserable image. You have the following choices:

1. In response to the present message on this blog, you will report here as Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, UCLA librarian domiciled in Culver City, California, and explain to our readers on what basis you called me "a pathetic and desparate liar".

2. On the thread referring to this message that I will open on RODOH, you will report as Jonnie "Hannover" Hargis, UCLA librarian domiciled in Culver City, California, and explain to our readers on what basis you called me "a pathetic and desparate liar".

3. You will reactivate my "roberto" account on the Cesspit, or allow me to open a new account either under my Christian name or as "Cortagravatas", whereupon I will open a thread on which you will explain on what basis you called me "a pathetic and desparate liar". In the ensuing discussion and in future discussions on your forum, you will then refrain from using the "delete" pedal except in case of clear-cut violations of warranted and transparent posting rules, and then only after a warning to comply which such rules.

4. As an alternative to either of the choices mentioned before, you may report as "Hannover" on either this blog or RODOH and humbly withdraw and apologize for the "pathetic and desparate liar" insult.

I look forward to hearing from you, Mr. Hargis.

Roberto Muehlenkamp

Watch Hannover Grow More Hysterical

What is it with Hannover? No matter how often he gets nailed, he simply waits all of five minutes and then reposts the same old lies. Evidently smarting from the spanking Sergey gave him here and here over Taeubner, the intrepid librarian now reposts one of his favourite cliches: 'no mass graves as alleged, no Holocaust'

According to the judeo-supremacist lies, mass-shootings-into-pits
allegations go as high as 2,000,000.
So, is that: 100 graves of 20,000? 200 graves of 10,000? 400 graves of
5,000? 500 graves of 4,000? 1000 graves of 2000? 2000 graves of 1000?
Not one mass grave has been produced to support the 'holocaust' shooting
claims*. Not a single one. Revisionism would be finished if even a few could be
shown. Go ahead and actually look for evidence like this excavation by the
Germans of the Communist atrocity at Katyn .... that was, of course, blamed on
the Germans. Katyn facts: 'Amtliches Material zum Massenmord von Katyn' http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=758
No mass graves as alleged, no 'holocaust'. -
Hannover
* or the gassings claims

Waaaalll, Jonnie, you might like to peruse some of the following blog articles about mass graves: on the Polesie, on Marijampole in Lithuania, on Babi Yar here, here, here and here; never mind this little overview of the extent of mass graves in the Soviet Union and Poland. Meanwhile, just so he's brushed up on the state of research about Sonderkommando 1005, the German unit which exhumed some - and ONLY some - of the mass graves of executed Jews in the east, he can have a little read here and here.

Of course, Hannover might also stop to wonder that this isn't simply a question of 2 million Jews mown down by rifle and machine gun fire, but many millions more Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Poles and other East European peoples unceremoniously dumped in antitank ditches and pits of varying sizes after expiring from gunfire, the noose, starvation and exhaustion.

Perhaps, too, Hannover is confused about the extent and nature of the documentation relating to mass shootings? Then he can get back to us about what this document actually means, if it doesn't mean a mass execution (and in this case, we know there was a mass grave dug up after the war). Or he could mull over the inability of 'revisionist' gurus Jürgen Graf and Carlo Mattogno to read several documents correctly, most notably concerning Galicia, Lithuania and Latvia.

Keep 'em coming, Jonnie. You may reassure your dwindling flock when you mount your soapbox, but you're a sorry excuse for a 'revisionist'.

Watch Hargis squirm

Someone alerted Jonnie "I am not Hannover" Hargis to the fact that he has been pwned. Now watch him squirm:

'Germania' refers to the above and the book it supposedly came from as "sourced in a similarly painstaking manner", very odd indeed.

- I just love the authors' silly beginning, "SS secret verdict". Amazing, so secret that court transcripts were supposedly left behind.

- Where is a reference to Taubner with his case number? Where is a reference to Taubner?

- Why don't we see the real text to these 'verdicts'? We have no reason to believe any of them support the claims made. We have no reason to believe any of them are about Taubner.

- They claim access to damning SS court transcripts, but do not show them. What are they hiding?

- What photos were ordered burnt?
If SS Himmler ordered alleged incriminating photos burnt, then why would an SS court leave a record of him supposedly ordering it? They wouldn't. And where's the alleged orders?

- We see English text, but not the original German transcripts. Why?

- We do see reference to an informer who was supposedly executed, perfectly legal. No Taubner though.

'sourced in a painstaking manner', I don't think so. A jumbled mess of nonsense is more like it.

I stand by my statements.

Jonnie dances around the facts which he can't refute. Namely:

• the book is painstakingly sourced;
• the verdict and other Taeubner-related documents are fully sourced;
• Jonnie Hargis is a silly antisemite, who wouldn't find his way out of a paper bag, much less find a page with sources in a book.

Jonnie is also so stupid as to refer to the fact that Taeubner wasn't judged for the murder of the Jews (he was sentenced because he acted without authorization, with cruelty, and, worst of all, made photos) as proof of something (only Hargis knows what).

It seems we have caught Hannover with his pants down. Yeeew. Not a lovely sight.

Anonymous comments disallowed.

Although sometimes anonymous comments are left by good people, we have decided to disallow such comments. They make it far too easy for various cowardly riff-raff to leave their trash here without feeling any responsibility whatsoever. We can't even track who authored which comment, which makes only trolls happy.

Registering with Blogger is not difficult, so nobody is disadvantaged.

Yet another troglodyte

In "The Unbearable Stupidity of the Cesspit" I have shown that an average Cesspit lemming doesn't know what it is talking about. Here I will show that it is their custom to dig themselves even deeper into their own manure.

Pompous, but absolutely brainless denier "Carto's Cutlass Supreme" (AKA "Even Dumber Than Hargis") begs for more humiliation:

The Sobibor maps and models have a railway line going to the death part of the camp. On page 124 of Yitzhak Arad's book "Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka," Scharfuhrer Erich Bauer said the train, equipped with a locomotive, transferred those unable to walk to the totenlager (death part of the camp) to the Lazarett located there. Arad quotes Bauer:

It was known in the camps that this Lazarett was used not for healing but for the extermination of people..."

The problem is that he's confusing Sobibor with Treblinka. Sobibor had no Lazarett. No map or model shows a Lazarett. It was Treblinka that had the Lazarett.

Really? What maps and models has this nimrod examined? Certainly not this map by W. Rutherford. After all, the legend reads:

55 "Lazarett" (former chapel with long pit behind structure for shooting invalids, the elderly or infirm, unaccompanied minors and any "trouble makers" from the transports)

Neither was it this sketch by survivor Moshe Bahir, which has "LAZARET" written on it in rather large letters. Nor this plan based on information from Erich Bauer and Thomas Blatt, which shows the chapel as no. 47, and the legend for which in Blatt's book Sobibor. The Forgotten Revolt reads as follows:

47. "Lazarett" (former chapel) used in the beginning to kill immobile Jews

And what models? Certainly not this model by Thomas Blatt, which shows the "Lazarett" chapel where it was.

True, Lazarett wasn't in Camp III, so Bauer is compressing two phases into his narrative - the early phase, when the infirm were transferred on carts to the chapel to be shot; and the later phase, when they were transported by narrow-gauge railway into Camp III, to the mass graves.

CCS adds a rather ironic observation:

It is not unlike where on Lubomyr Prytulak's website (now forced down) where he documented the confusion of the dog Barry being at Sobibor and at Treblinka.

Ironic, given that Lubo didn't really document anything, but his own lack of basic logic. And Lubo's site wasn't "forced down". He decided to remove it himself.

Now I'd like an answer from the Cesspit pond-life: is it painful to be so stupid?

Yawn. I guess it's spankin' time again.

Deniers can't debunk the fact that the 1943 judgement by the SS and Police Supreme Court against SS-Unterstrumfuehrer Max Taeubner proves the Nazi genocidal anti-Jewish program (Klee, Dressen, Riess, The Good Old Days, p. 201):

The accused shall not be punished because of the actions against the Jews as such. The Jews have to be exterminated and none of the Jews that were killed is any great loss. Although the accused should have recognized that the extermination of the Jews was the duty of Kommandos which were set up especially for this purpose, he should be excused for considering himself to have the authority to take part in the extermination of Jewry himself. Real hatred of the Jews was the driving motivation for the accused.

Given this damning evidence, deniers have to resort to different tricks. Our old good library assistant Jonnie Hargis (AKA Hannover, AKA The Dumbest Person in the World) tries one such trick:

On pages 196-207 they have alleged extracts from an SS court trial in 1943 involving a Max Taubner who was allegedly pardoned even though he was found guilty of allegedly killing Jews. There is no case number given, no reference to the location of the transcripts, nothing....simply text written by who knows who. There is a post at this bbs with claims a case number, but indeed in the book, none exists! I have the book.

[...]

The entire book is utter nonsense where unsubstantiations abound. They simply make up absurd claims and can't back up a single one. Read it and see.

Here's a part of a scanned page from the book, giving the source of the Taeubner-related documents:



The rest of the book is sourced in a similarly painstaking manner.

Now, do you think Hannover-Hargis is a lying scum or an oligophrenic scum?

An honest (well, in a way...) denier sez:

So is this the so-called "massacre" where kikes were supposedly massacred? God, but were it only so.

Google-Whack-A-Scumbag

We've had fun recently with Kiwichap, aka SeymoreG at RODOH and, as 'Antipodes', almost single-handedly responsible for the closing of the Skeptic Forum WWII section because of what was deemed excessive racism.

Anyway, the loss of an entire platform has meant that the fundamentalist Christian freak has had to return to the Cesspit to practice his stupidities. This time, the bright spark stumbled across news International Research Project on Jewish Soldiers and Prisoners of War in World War II and boggled at the quoted figure of 200,000 Jewish POWs captured by the Germans.

Had the intrepid New Zealander performed a simple Google, he might have come across no fewer than 1,320,000 hits for 'Jewish POWs', of which quite a number might have helped him with his comprehension problems. Most of all, he might have realised that just because his antisemitic buddies and he think of 'the Jews' as a unified people today, doesn't mean that the Nazis could proceed against 'the Jews' uniformly in the 1940s. How many countries was it that Hitler invaded and fought against, again?

Take this short excerpt of a conference paper by noted German historian Rüdiger Overmans, for example. There he might have learnt that the Germans released the POWs captured from the Greek and Yugoslav Armies, which meant they rounded up the Jewish POWs later - partly because in those countries, the Nazis didn't call all the shots, because they shared spheres of influence with Mussolini. Or he might have found this interesting page on Jewish POWs in Colditz, many from nations which happened to have captured rather a lot of German prisoners of war, who might have fallen victim to reprisals had the Nazis tried to deport British, US, Canadian and other Commonwealth nationals to death camps, in breach of the Geneva Convention. While we appreciate that in many respects, Kiwichap's hero Dolfy was not the cleverest of strategists, the Nazis weren't completely stupid and had to respect certain boundaries out of pure Realpolitik.

Not so in the east, as Kiwichap might have learned regarding Polish Jewish POWs if he'd clicked here or here [Large PDF]. Indeed, he might sooner of later have come across the potentially shocking (to deniers, that is) fact that the SS first carried out four-figure mass executions against Polish Jewish prisoners of war.

As for Soviet Jewish POWs, we'll forgive him his presumable inability to read Russian and thus to access this mammoth two-volume work by Aron Shneer on the fate of Jewish Red Army prisoners of war, now online in full and for free, and instead direct him back to Google, this time to search among the 341,000 hits for 'commissar order'.

Such, then, is the state of 'revisionist research' at the Cesspit these days. Another trial balloon floated to convince themselves that the Holocaust Never Happened, another balloon shot down. If we were even vaguely sympathetic to 'revisionism', we'd be embarrassed for the poor little dears.

Open Thread

I know, we're hardly dailykos in size, but there seems to be some demand for a place that readers can get on their own soapboax. No spam please, and remember, think before you type...

McNally 'too crude' even for Cesspit

Well, that didn't last long. Only a few hours after Andrew pulverized McNally's '95 Theses', the Cesspit moderator (read: Hannover)posted the following message:

Moderator
Mon Sep 18, 2006 11:26 am
This list, while rich with basic Revisionist facts, is simply too crude. The list is gone, this thread will be removed.
M1

Full credit to Hargis for realising that someone ranting about the 'joos' is 'too crude'. Perhaps he might then realise that saying 'judeo-supremacist' is only a couple of junior high grades above?

As to Sergey's question is Patrick McNally's brain rotting, the answer is obvious: he sold it on brains4zombies.com.

Absence of Logic: A Response to McNally

On Jonnie Hargis's Führerbunker, Canadian Holocaust denier Friedrich Braun posted "Ninety-Five Theses on the Holocaust" by Professor Patrick McNally of the Faculty of Policy Studies at Chuo University in Japan.

I threw these responses out in less than half an hour. I seriously hope Prof. McNally does not teach basic logic. A shorter version of this has already been e-mailed to McNally:

Read more!

*1. There is no forensic evidence whatsoever for the hoaxoco$t.

This is simply not true. If McNally (and other deniers) would define "forensic," we could move forward from there, but they never do. So the first stage in debating these "theses" would be to establish the truth or falsity of this first thesis. But we can't do that because McNally, like most deniers, won't define terms first.

*2. There logically cannot be any holyhoax eyewitnesses.

This is begging the question. We have yet to establish (1).

*3. All so-called holocaust evidence is merely hearsay and senile lies.

That can only apply to eyewitnesses, if even then. So we're back to (1)

*4. The hoaxoco$t affirmers jump grasshopper-like from refuted lies to
new lies awaiting refutation.

Can McNally provide a single example?

*5. The hoaxoco$t is world history`s filthiest blood libel.

How so? Wouldn't something like the Lincoln and Norwich blood libels be worse, considering they ended in violence against and mass deportatation of Jews?

*6. The Awshucks Labor Camp had more amenities than the USA WW2 camps for Japanese Americans.

A swimming pool used only by SS is not going to cut it, nor is a movie theater.

*7. Crematoria are never used anywhere to kill people. They are used to burn the bodies of people who are already dead. There is nothing ominous about crematoria.

There is something ominous about 52 crematoria muffles able to incinerate over 2,500 bodies per day. In a camp that could barely hold 200,000 people, it's a bit strange to be able to incinerate the entire camp population in less than three months, unless you're expecting mass deaths to occur.

*8. Awshucks and all labor camps had insecticidal gas chambers.

This proves or disproves nothing.

*9. Insecticidal gas chambers saved Jewish lives.

And they saved SS lives. Which do you think were more important to the Nazis?

*10. There were no homicidal gas chambers anywhere in German occupied territory.

What about at Auschwitz, Belzec, Chelmno, Treblinka, Majdanek, and Sobibor?

*11. Faurisson`s Challenge [Draw me a homicidal gas chamber!] must be met. Holocaustomaniacs must finally put up or shut up!

Why? What special right does Faurisson have to have his demands met that others
do not? We're talking about a man who, for years, asked for "just one proof" of gas chambers, and when Jean-Claude Pressac published a whole book of proofs, and Faurisson still won't shut up.

*12. There were no 6,000,000 jooz to be killed.

Sure there were. The Wannsee Protokol has that nearly that many in Poland and Ukraine alone.

*13. During WW2 there was a war going on. During wars people die and get killed.

Again, this proves or disproves nothing.

*14. If Hiroshima deaths were not murders, neither were Auschwitz deaths.

Straw man alert! Hiroshima was murder.

*15. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were real holocausts [killing by burning].

OK, so let's just call the Holocaust the Shoah instead.

*16. The only real holocaust in Germany was against Germans in their firebombed cities.

That emanates only from your limited definition of "Holocaust."

*17. The worst war criminals [1941-1945] were the American Air Farce fire bombing squadrons.

All sides in the war committed crimes. Both Americans and Japanese did in the Pacific Theater, and we know the Soviets did. The British did most of the bombing of Dresden. But does that exculpate the Nazis? No, it doesn't.

*18. There is better and more proof for the Trojan War than for the holyhoax.

There is no proof at all for the Trojan War, or even Troy.

*19. Belief in the hoaxoco$t is epistemologically similar to belief in witches.

Did the perpetrators of torture during the witch trials confess to engaging in torture? Because if they didn't, then you're wrong.

*20. Belief in the hoaxoco#t is morally much worse than belief in witches.

Based in whose moral calculus? Yours?

21. G, Rudolf`s Lectures on the Holocaust is the indispensable vademecum for students of the holocaust.

Perhaps then you can explain why Mr. Irving withdrew Mr. Rudolf's affidavit from evidence?

*22. The constant changes in the holyhoax fable are due to revisionist pressure and not to any jooish honesty.

This is a classic post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy.

*23. Jooz have abandoned the filthy "soap made from Jews" blood libel.

No, historians have abandoned it.

24. The whole hollowcause story is exactly like the filthy "soap made from Jews" lie.

This shows an utter failure to show causation.

*25. Only jooish obstinacy, greed, and mendacity maintain the Hoaxocost Lie.

And all that inconvenient evidence. Back to (1).

26. The Awshucks Labor Camp was much safer than the German cities being bombed.

Again, begging the question.

27. Giving false testimony must be a criminal and tort offense. ["Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor!"]

So shall we punish sixty-nine SS witnesses for bearing false witness against themselves?

*28. In colloquial English and bureaucratic German, the phrase "Auschwitz Lie" has exactly opposite meanings.

This is a completely irrelevant observation.

*29. If the Auschwitz Lie collapses, the hoaxoco$t collapses.

This is false dilemma.

*30. The holyhoax is the Achilles heel of Jew Power over Gentiles.

Again, begging the question.

*31. If the hoaxoco$t collapses, Jew Power collapses.

Ditto.

*32. Nazis wanted to deport Jooz to somewhere.

Wow, we agree!

*33. Zionists wanted jooz to be deported to somewhere.

Again, we agree.

*34. Nazis and Zionists cooperated to save jooz by getting them out of the war zone to Palestine.

It couldn't have happened that way. Germany never controlled the Mediterranean. As such, the British Navy never lost its ability to enforce its white papers on Palestine that restricted and later outlawed immigration.

*35. Russia and Western Europe have different railroad width gauges.

True.

*36. The Bergen-Belch-Burp Camp and several other camps were located at
the railroad width gauge difference line. They were all transit camps and
not death camps.

This is a faulty syllogism. You cannot conclude your final sentence from your penultimate premise.

*37. If it is morally acceptable for Jews to deport Palestinians from
their homeland, it was morally acceptable for Germans to deport Jews from a
country not their homeland. This is called Torah tit-for-tat.

Another straw man.

*38. Deholyhoaxotoxification is urgently needed.

I don't even understand what that means.

*39. Both the Nurnberg Show Trials and Stalin`s Show Trials used lots of
torture to get confessions.

Who was tortured at Nuremberg?

*40. The Nurnberg Show Trials were far worse than Stalin`s Show Trials
because a whole people was condemned in perpetuity at Nurnberg.

Only if one believes that all Germans were Nazis. Do you?

*41. An international commission must study the forensic aspects of the
holocaust accusations of murder. This commission cannot include any
Jews, Christians, or citizens of HOGs [Holocaust Occupied Governments].

So who will do it? Muslims? Buddhists? Avowed atheists from Samoa?

*42. Finkelstein`s witty and informative The Holocaust Industry does not
even touch on the holocaust as such.

True.

*43. Jooz lie and then get angry when people do not believe their lies.

As do all people, but I question the relevance of this statement. And I seriously question whether all Jews lie, if that is your suggestion.

*44. The absolutely biggest jooish lie is the hoaxoco$t.

And again, begging the question.

*45. The holyhoax fable is nothing but jooish hate speech.

Ditto.

*46. Jooish anti-Gentile lies are a clever defense tactic.

Defense against what?

*47. Gentiles get so overwhelmed by jooish lies that they do not see that jooz are committing the very crimes they accuse Gentiles of.

Where are "Jooz" using gas chambers?

*48. Gentiles will stop telling truths about jooz when jooz stop telling lies about Gentiles.

What truths are being told about Jews that we would want stopped?

*49. Germans must institute a class action lawsuit against the holocaust jet-set plutocrats.

That'll go over big.

*50. The hoaxoco$tofried European Union should be dissolved back into its member states.

I object to this "thesis" on the grounds of relevance.

*51. Holocaust affirmers should be incarcerated.

This would be violation of First Amendment and Article 19 of the U.N. charter.

*52. World Jewry has to pay back all money extorted via the Auschwitz Lie.

Back to our good old friend begging the question.

*53. The once proud German people have become cowards enslaved by the
Auschwitz Lie.

And again: Begging the question.

*54. Germany is now a HOG [Holocaust Obsessed Government].

I don't see how. They seem to have moved past it.

*55. The Hoaxoco$t is the worse plague facing humanity today.

AIDS kills millions yearly. How many die at the hands of the Holocaust?

*56. All UN member states should institute an anti-Holocaust loyalty
oath for their citizens. No holocaust affirmer can be trusted.

This is McCarthyism at best and fascism at worst.

*57. The holyhoaxofried UN itself should be disbanded.

Would that be before or after your McCarthyite "loyalty oath"?

*58. The holyhoax must be privatized, i.e. removed from public space.

Again, I object due to relevance.

*59. All hoaxoco$t museums, libraries, and stink tanks must be closed.

Ditto

*60. Alley the Weasel told significant lies to get his UAssA citizenship.

Please name them or retract this ad hominem.

*61. Alley the Weasel is a schmaltzy vicious hate-mongering racist liar.

Ditto.

*62. Alley the Weasel, history`s filthiest libeler, should be deported
back to the JewsOnlyState whence he came. He did not come to the USA as a
homeless refugee but as a speaker and spreader of anti-Gentile hatred.

Wiesel never lived in Israel. Unless you mean that France, from which Wiesel emigrated to the U.S., is a "JewsOnlyState."

*63. The Holocaust industry causes infinitely more harm than the tobacco
industry. Public health warnings should be put on anything published by
holocaustomaniacs.

Tobacco kills 500,000 Americans per year. Again, as per (55), it is your job to prove what you allege.

*64. The Hoaxoco$t is elite Jewry`s cash cow, golden calf, and prize
alibi for any and all of its crimes.

Perhaps, but again, what is the relevance?

*65. The holocaust fable has replaced Christ`s Crucifixion.

So history literally changed?

*66. The birth of Isrealhell has replaced Christ`s Resurrection.

Ditto.

*67. Holocaustianity has replaced Christianity.

So what organization does Benedict XVI run?

*68. The vast majority of the jooish sheeple are hoaxoco$t racists.

This is more ad hominem.

*69. Israel must continue to exist but within the 1948 UN mandated borders.

OK, but I again object due to relevance.

*70. Israel can continue to serve as an open-air mental hospital for incorrigible racists. Where could Izzies go?

This is again ad hominem.

*71. There cannot be any ¡Èone state solution¡É forcing Palestinians to live with racist joos.

Ditto.

*72. The apart-hate JewState must get rid of its worse than Nazi race laws.

Could Jews in Germany vote after 1935?

*73. Israel sees the UAssA as its chief near-term enemy.

What proof is there of this assertion?

*74. Israel destroys the UAssA through its fifth column of traitors high
in the American government. Israel blackmails the JewAssA into wars fought
for the JewState and these wars are bleeding America to death.

Ditto

*75. Unrepentant racist Jews must be helped to emigrate to the
demilitarized JewState or be put back into a new ghetto.

Got yourself a little Madagascar plan, do you?

*76. Jewdayism is not any kind of a religion but merely a racist
political ideology.

How is Judaism racist? Give examples.

*77. Zio-Judyism must be privatized back into the synagogues and mental
wards.

This is self-contradiction. You said above that Israel should continue to exist.

*78. Zio-Judaism is a Tallmud teaching of anti-Gentile hatred.

The Talmud is specifically against Zionism.

*79. Aliyah Zionism teaches that all jooz should emigrate to Izzie. Actually a great idea!

This is actually a terrible idea. Fourteen million Jews in a space the size of Delaware is a invitation to a nuclear attack by people like you.

*80. Non-aliyah Zionism teaches that jooz should support the JewsOnlyState by acting as a fifth column of traitors in the various cattle-goyim states. Not a good idea!

Any proof for this whopper? Of course not.

*81. Zionism must be recognized as [not even] a racism.

Once again, the relevance here cannot be established?

*82. Any Gentile racism is on a higher moral level than Zionism.

Why?

*83. Semitism [Jewish Supremacy] teaches that a joo elite should use deceit to dominate cattle goyim nations. Semitists principally use the Auschwitz Club to control the goyim

Again, there is no proof offered here -- just assertions.

*84. Anti-Semitists [not anti-Semites] are urgently needed to fight Semitism [jooish supremacy].

You say potato.

*85. The "Clash of Civilizations" is just a joo scam used to cause wars against and among all humans.

Proof? Relevance? Either? Both?

*86. Jewry is defeating the West [both Black and White] with the hoaxoco$t lie. Jewry is simultaneously waging an anti-Islamic war using Gentile stooges to fight and die for Isrealhell.

Where is war being waged against Islam per se?

*87. Jewry`s multi-front wars are very risky for Mr. Joo because some cattle goyim might wake up.

Which wars are we speaking of?

*88. The German [Hitler] Revolution was very democratic. The French and Russian Revolutions were very undemocratic.

Can we see a demonstration of any relevance whatsoever?

*89. Elite Jewry started WW2 in 1933 by unilaterally declaring war on Germany.

So why did it take Germany six years to retaliate? This is beyond senseless. An economic boycott by a stateless people cannot be and is not an act of war.

*90. Jewism is the residual racism uniting the Solomon Sixpackers, i.e.
the hoi polloi of the jooish sheeple.

There is no proof offered. Again.

*91. The jooish contribution to Gentile societies is a net negative.

Look at a list of Nobel winners some time.

*92. An anti-Semitist [not auntie-Semenist] used to mean someone who hates Semitists. Now an anti-Semitist means someone whom Semitists hate.

You, again, say potato.

*93. A Zionist used to mean a Jew who wanted to send stupider Jews to Palestine. Now a Zionist is often a rich¡¡Jew who escapes from Israel and leaves the stupidest jooz holding the bag as the JewState implodes.

This is perhaps true, but where is the freaking relevance?

*94. The War on Terrorism [actually a War on Common Sense] is a joo- inspired scheme to get stupid Whites and Christians to kill innocent Arabs and Muslims.

Is there any proof of Jewish contrivance? Or any demonstration of relevance?

*95. Delendae sunt Judaea atque holyhoaxotoxia! [Israel and the hoaxoco$t must be destroyed.

And we end with another self-contradiction.

Can you respond to this without ad hominem? I'll bet $100 you can't.

Whack-a-scumbag

I just love this game. The crazy Kiwi Christian Identity guy, rather known for his lack of brightness (politically-correctly speaking), quotes lying David Irving's rendition distortion of Cavendish-Bentinck's memos at the Cesspit.

No matter that Irving's lies about Cavendish-Bentinck have been exposed during the 2000 trial...