Mass Graves at Sobibor – 7th Update

Original article

1st update

2nd update

3rd update

4th update

5th update

6th update

8th update

9th update

10th update


Nail-biting-anxious about what archaeological work on the site of former Sobibor extermination camp may turn up, and beside himself with rage about being ignored by Yoram Haimi – who by now must have decided to drop every e-mail from Gerdes into the trash bin like so much other spam – , Gerdes freaked out again and gave his readers another splendid view of his infantile and sick mind.

Read more!


In his post Thu Sep 25, 2008 1:10 pm on the CODOH thread My email to archeological 'expert' Yoram Haimi, one finds the following pearl of Gerdian howling hysteria:

Thursday, September 25, 2008 11:59 AM

From: "Greg Gerdes"

To: yoramhai@gmail.com

Subject: Oct 14 - 16 exploration / expedition

Quote:
Hello again Yoram,

Did you know that your continued refusal to answer the most simple, basic questions regarding your alleged archeological excavations at Sobibor is proving that you are a liar, hypocrite, coward and fraud? (You remind very much of Michael Shermer.)

Are you not aware that there are people all over the world taking notice of your shameless, craven refusal to show at least a modicum of pride, honor, integrity and professionalism? (Again, you remind me of Shermer - and Kola.)

I have found out on my own that you have invited Roberto Muehlenkamp to Sobibor for some type of archeological expedition for the dates of Oct 14 -16. Could you confirm this information for me?

The following was posted on the VNN forum by Muehlenkamp just yesterday:

Quote:
"I’ve been invited by Yoram Haimi, director of the SAP... I will be there [Sobibor] from 14 October to 16 October."

Is the above true? And if so, who else has been invited? Why not an open invitation to the entire world to come see your archeological work / progress to date? Why the limited access? Why would you invite a proven psychotic, pathological liar and no real archeologists or historians? Why no invitations to other interested parties and impartial observers? Don't you want to show the world all the "work" you've accomplished in the last 8 years? Don't you want to help put an end to holocaust denial?

Well Yoram, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for an answer from you, but I do have a couple more questions for you:

How does it feel having a magnifying glass put on you and your fraudulent "project?"

How does it feel to know that the whole world now knows that you haven't so much as turned one single spade of dirt in the last 8 years?

How does it feel knowing that you and your "project" have been exposed as the frauds that you are?

You can run Yoram, but you can't hide.


65 years since the alleged mass murder of 250,000 jews.

Two separate "discoveries" (one put down the memory hole - why?) of the alleged "huge mass graves."

The construction (and subsequent refurbishing) of a "huge mountain of human remains."

An archeological "investigation" conducted by the fraud Kola.

An ongoing (8 year) archeological "project" conducted by the fraud Yoram Haimi.

A $100,000.00 reward for locating / proving the existence of just 1/10th of 1% of the bone fragments or teeth of the alleged murder victims.

The results?

Not an iota of human remains has EVER been proven to have been located / proven to exist at the Sobibor site.

NOT AN IOTA.

Maybe 65 years just isn't enough time?

Maybe 8 years just isn’t enough time?

Maybe $100,000.00 just isn't enough of an incentive?

Maybe the jews just don't want to put an end to holocaust denial?

No wonder Muehlenkamp is the only one who has been invited to this exploration / expedition.

As even someone as ignorant and distant from reality as Gerdes should know, archaeological excavations are not something that anyone can just come and watch. Archaeological work and archaeological finds are delicate matters, and archaeologists are accordingly supposed to be very careful about who they allow on site during an excavation. What's funny in this context is that one of Gerdes’ more developed brothers-in-faith, a certain "Karl Von Clausewitz", gave me a speech about how "you can't attend an archeological dig without being a qualified archeologist, or contracted to assist in the digging, etc." (see KVC’s post # 1346 on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka and my response to the fellow in post # 1349 on the same thread).

As to why Gerdes is not likely to deserve being granted the privilege of watching the Sobibor Archaeological Project's work on site, unlike me and presumably also other persons interested in their work, Gerdes gave the reason himself when he asked:

Why would you invite a proven psychotic, pathological liar and no real archeologists or historians?

A proven psychotic, pathological liar – that’s the most appropriate characterization of Gerdes I can think of. The same applies to those he calls "real archeologists or historians", by which he obviously means other "Revisionist" charlatans, though not necessarily to the same extent as it does to Gerdes, whose paranoia and compulsive mendacity stand out even in "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land. Of course these people are also the least impartial observers one can think of, and "interested parties" I would not call them either, insofar as evidence to what happened at places like Sobibor during World War II is the last thing they are interested in.

The "NOT AN IOTA" sermon following the transcription of Gerdes' e-mailed invective has already been addressed in the previous update. Gerdes is in the habit of constantly repeating himself, as becomes a classic conspiraloon:

A person who always says the same thing, and says it over and over again is, of course, commonly considered to be, if not a monomaniac, then at very least, a bore.

Mass Graves at Sobibor – 6th Update

Original article

1st update

2nd update

3rd update

4th update

5th update

7th update

8th update

9th update

10th update


On page 2 of the CODOH thread My email to archeological 'expert' Yoram Haimi , Gerdes’ feeble-minded companions "MrNobody" (post of Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:29 am) and "KostasL" (post of Wed Sep 24, 2008 11:44 am) displayed their genius with unsurprisingly imbecilic "could be cattle or dinosaur bones that someone put there" – joking.

Read more!


Surprisingly Laurentz Dahl, who is arguably the only poster with some intelligence in the Cesspit, joined the chorus of cretins with his post of Wed Sep 24, 2008 1:05 pm. But then, even the brighter "Revisionists" can’t help being the trash they are.

What’s not surprising is that Gerdes managed to exceed the inanity of his buddies' utterances with the following wisdom, see his post Wed Sep 24, 2008 8:21 pm:

Isn't it funny, if a few bits of bone fragments are supposed to be evidence of mass murder, then there are about - oh, a trillion piles of such evidence for mass murder spread around the state of Montana. Gee, who woulda-thunk-it that one could find some bones in the woods?

If bone fragments happened to litter the area around known mass graves in a place where all known evidence shows mass murder to have occurred, such as Sobibor, they would be evidence to mass murder among other evidence, of course. As I have often said on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, Gerdes should get himself a brain.

But Gerdian brilliance didn't stop there.

Gerdes:

The fact is, not so much as one single bone fragment proven to be human has ever been located / proven to exist at Sobibor. Not one single grave has been located that contains a single body or even an ounce of human bone, an ounce of human ash, or even so much as a single human tooth. NOT ONE!

As even Gerdes should understand, the presence of bone fragments at a place where mass murder is shown by all known evidence to have occurred is at least prima facie evidence that the bone fragments are fragments of human bones, meaning that the burden of proving that the bone fragments are not human lies with who so alleges.

As to his "not one single grave" prayer, the fellow is obviously trying to tell us that there are no human remains underneath four notably greener areas clearly visible on the below commented enlargement of a section from a satellite photo kindly provided by Gerdes himself:



Never mind that Gerdes has no explanation – just the hollow "turf building" and "landscaping" conspiracy theories mentioned in the 1st update – for the distinctly greener coloration of the areas I numbered, for which the fertilizing effect of the human remains underneath is a plausible explanation also in line with the evidence.

Never mind that these green areas coincide with mass grave areas identified and mapped by a renowned professional archaeologist in 2001, mostly on the basis of core drills resulting in soil samples like those shown in the following photos:







which reveal subsoil layers of light-gray and white substances that are obviously ashes of bone and tissue (the former) and bone ash or lime (the latter), without Gerdes being able to provide an alternative explanation.

Never mind that Gerdes cannot explain away the fact that all eyewitnesses to what happened at Sobibor in 1942/43 described an extermination camp, including former inmates cross-examined at trials before West German courts and former members of the SS staff like Karl Frenzel.

Never mind, last but not least, that Gerdes cannot explain why the alleged transportation via "transit camp" Sobibor to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories and resettlement there of at least about 150,000 Jews (the number of deportees to Sobibor that can be established on hand of documentary evidence alone) left no single transportation or administrative document, not the tiniest piece of the expectably huge paper trail that such an operation would have generated, and neither a single out of thousands upon thousands of expectable eyewitnesses. Or why only several dozen of those deportees were still alive at the end of World War II.

Gerdes

FYI - The only human bones (which were known to the jews to be from a non jew), that were ever to be seen at Sobibor (in the glass display case), have disappeared!

As mentioned in the 1st update, the glass display containing human remains that can be seen on this photo, featured in the Archives of The Ghetto Fighters House and included in my thread Mass Graves and Dead Bodies:



is not part of the "ash mountain" monument anymore. Why the glass display was removed and where its contents were placed is not known to either me or Gerdes. But Gerdes wouldn’t be Gerdes if he didn’t have a faith-conforming conspiracy theory at hand:

They are now, most likely, under the anti-investigation cap put over the "huge mountain of human remains" so frauds like Yoram can say with a straight face that the "ash" mountain "contains" human remains. Not - comprised of, but "contains."

Or maybe he’s just venting his rage over the fact that Yoram Haimi has realized what a hopeless wacko Gerdes is and accordingly stopped responding to the wacko’s hysterical e-mails.

Gerdes:

65 years since the alleged mass murder of 250,000 jews.

65 years have gone by since the deportations to Sobibor in 1942/43, and still no more than several dozen survivors from among the deportees (about 150,000 according to documentary evidence, 250,000 according to some estimates), allegedly transported to the Nazi-occupied Soviet territories via "transit camp" Sobibor, have become known. Go figure. The rest must have been abducted by flying saucers, if one is to accept the "transit camp" theory proclaimed by the likes of Gerdes.

Gerdes:

Two separate "discoveries" (one put down the memory hole - why?) of the alleged "huge mass graves."

One wonders what Gerdes considers the first discovery of the mass graves.

Could it be that he’s referring to the postwar robbery-digging mentioned in the 3rd update and visible on photos shown there?

Or does he consider Prof. Kola’s archaeological investigation in 2001 to have been the first discovery, and corroboration of Prof. Kola’s mapping of the graves by air and satellite photographs the second?

Gerdes:

The construction (and subsequent refurbishing) of a "huge mountain of human remains."

Actually I don’t remember having seen a description or photo caption concerning the "ash mountain" monument at Sobibor that called it a "huge" mountain of human remains.

Gerdes:

An archeological "investigation" conducted by the fraud Kola.

Correction: an archaeological investigation conducted in 2001 by a renowned archaeologist, lamely called a "fraud" by one of the most obvious frauds in "Revisionist" cloud-cuckoo-land.

Gerdes:

An ongoing (8 year) archeological "project" conducted by the fraud Yoram Haimi.

A lie from that same fraud, who like I knows from the website of the Sobibor Archaeology Project that this project started work on site in October 2007.

What is more, Gerdes is repeating a lie already included in his last e-mail to Yoram Haimi and in his post of Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:34 pm (see the 5th update), after I called his attention to that update (see my post # 1336 on the VNN thread). It seems that Gerdes is infantile enough to repeat a lie out of spite.

Gerdes:

A $100,000.00 reward for locating / proving the existence of just 1/10th of 1% of the bone fragments or teeth of the alleged murder victims.

See my VNN posts # 1327 and # 1336 about the probable reasons for the recent reformulation of Gerdes’ requirements for claiming this reward.

Gerdes:

The results?

Not an iota of human remains has EVER been proven to have been located / proven to exist at the Sobibor site.

NOT AN IOTA.

Yeah, sure, Mr. Gerdes. Not an iota in these samples that you cannot otherwise explain, right?







Not an iota underneath these green areas coinciding with an archaeologist’s mapping of mass graves, right?



Not an iota of evidence speaking against the conclusion that at least 150,000 people were murdered at Sobibor and their remains lie buried in this area, that’s what we have.

And not an iota of the honesty and courage it would take for Gerdes to admit this, of course.

Gerdes:

Maybe 65 years just isn't enough time?

Maybe 8 years just isn’t enough time?

Maybe $100,000.00 just isn't enough of an incentive?

Maybe the jews just don't want to put an end to holocaust denial?

Or maybe it’s just not considered necessary by most to further disturb the peace of the dead in order to further confirm or increase knowledge about something that has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt already.

And maybe one should also bear in mind that graveyards and mass graves are not places where one can do archaeological digging just like that, without an official permission that must overcome considerations of respect for the peace of the dead existing, as far as I know, in any culture and religion, and that won’t be granted any faster just because a sick and cowardly liar waves a reward he will obviously avoid having to pay no matter what evidence he is shown.

As I have often said on the VNN thread VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, Gerdes should get himself a brain.

Mass Graves at Sobibor – 5th Update

Original article

1st update

2nd update

3rd update

4th update

6th update

7th update

8th update

9th update

10th update


In my post # 1289 on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, I wrote the following:

Considering how easy it apparently is to stumble upon bone fragments in this area, these photos show just a small fraction of what is lying around there. If you want a complete quantification, Mr. Gerdes, I have an idea: why don’t we both go there and count the bone fragments we find? You pay your cost, I pay mine. If there’s archaeological work on site in October this year, I will be there from 14 October to 16 October. Will you join me then, Mr. Gerdes?

Read more!


There was no reply from Gerdes.

In my VNN post # 1328, I picked up this issue again, this time in a message to Gerdes’ sister-in-faith "EireannGoddess" (hereinafter called "EG"):

EG

I see that the Mule sis running out of steam. Reposting an earlier reply and whining for help from us.

Actually I just responded to TFS' nonsense in an ironic manner. But you're too simple-minded to understand irony, aren't you?

EG

He should, instead, go to the jews and ask them to finance his little expedition. After all the 'holocaust' and Kola's lie is their purview.

Careful with that inflationary use of the term "lie", lest no one take you seriously in the improbable case that you one day discover an actual lie.

And who told you that I'm doing an expedition? I'm only watching what's going on at Sobibor in terms of archaeological work.

As we're at it, I might be there in mid-October. If so, how about joining me (at your own expense, of course)? Excavation of the mass grave areas will not take place before next spring, but we might collect and photograph bone fragments lying above ground. Interested?

Here’s what Gerdes made of my latter message, in his post of Tue Sep 23, 2008 8:34 pm on the CODOH thread thread My email to archeological 'expert' Yoram Haimi:

Of course I have no idea if the pathological liar is telling the truth or not, but Muehlnekamp is claiming that he's got plans to go to Sobibor to - "collect and photograph bone fragments lying above ground."

I just sent the following email to Yoram:

Quote:
Tuesday, September 23, 2008 7:07 PM

Hello Yoram, I'm emailing you to find out, on what EXACT date(s) your photo expedition with Roberto Muehlenkamp is supposed to occur. I bring your attention to the following VNN post by Muehlenkamp:

Quote:
"As we're at it, I might be there [Sobibor] in mid-October. If so, how about joining me (at your own expense, of course)? Excavation of the mass grave areas will not take place before next spring, but we might collect and photograph bone fragments lying above ground."

I'm also interested in who else has been invited to this photographic expedition. You have of course invited other interested parties and/or impartial observers? Surely you wouldn't pass up the opportunity to show the world what physical evidence is allegedly "lying above ground" at Sobibor? It would also be a great opportunity for you to show the world all the progress you've made with your excavations of Sobibor’s alleged "huge mass graves" before you suspend your excavations until next spring. (One would think though, that after 8 years, your excavations would be almost complete?)

And what about Andrzej Kola? Surely he's been invited - correct? And what about Michael Shermer, has he been invited also? This is a great idea Yoram, but it does beg the question: What has taken you so long? If there is so much physical evidence "lying above ground" at Sobibor, then why do I not see any photos of it on your website? And why haven’t you invited people to see the results of your work after the 2002, 03, 04, 05, 06, & 07 seasons? Why has it taken 8 years to invite people to see all this alleged evidence? (And why wasn't there a similar invitation to the world to witness the refurbishing of Sobibor’s "giant mountain of human remains?")

Well, I'm sure we can discuss all those questions at a later date, but what I really need from you - ASAP - is the date(s) of this photographic expedition so as to promote it to as many interested parties as possible. I'm sure you will be more than willing to help me out with this information / promotion because this is such a great opportunity for you to put an end to holocaust denial, wouldn't you agree Yoram? And the opportunity to show the world how much work you have done on-site, i.e. the progress made with your excavations to date would be priceless, don't you think?

Thank you in advance for answering as many of the above questions as you have time for and thank you very much for an answer as per the date(s) I've inquired about.

Thanks again and take care Yoram. And who knows, maybe I'll be seeing you in a couple of weeks! (I can't wait to see for myself how your excavations are coming along, if you haven't finished already. But If I can’t make it due to such short notice, how about uploading some pics to your site showing all your progress? Don’t be shy Yoram. And while you’re at it, please include some of the photos of Shermer and Kola doing their alleged investigations also, OK? Surely there are photos showing them actually at Sobibor, correct?)


We'll see what kind of a response I get from Yoram or RM.


BTW, I think this would be a good time and place to ask:

Where / who are all the Poles in the holocaust truth movement? Wouldn't this be a great time / place for them to make their presence felt?

Also, what about The World Holocaust Foundation? (Tehran conference) Wouldn't something like this be a great opportunity for them to get involved with?

The ensuing BS aside (among other hysterical and/or mendacious crap Gerdes is conflating the archaeological investigation carried out at Sobibor by Prof. Kola in 2001 with the Sobibor Archaeological Project, which as he knows only started working in 2007) note how Gerdes made my question to EG about her and I collecting and photographing bone fragments at Sobibor (asked half-jokingly, as I knew what answer to expect from the lady) into an announcement that I «got plans to go to Sobibor to - "collect and photograph bone fragments lying above ground"».

And how what would at most amount to private citizen Muehlenkamp’s taking photos of bone fragments at Sobibor for his own collection of Sobibor evidence was blown up by Gerdes into a "photographic expedition" related to the Sobibor Archaeological Project.

I’ll let our readers decide which of Gerdes’ deplorable character traits is at play here: his pathological mendacity (which the fellow accuses his opponent of in an obvious case of self-projection), his megalomaniac paranoia, or some of both.

As to inviting "Revisionist" crackpots to watch the results of archaeological work at Sobibor, I think it would not be a bad idea to have some big names in the "Revisionist" movement, like Messrs. Faurisson and Graf (as Gerdes mentioned the "Tehran conference", which IIRC was attended by both), come to Sobibor during or after core drilling/excavation of the mass grave areas, if such should take place (as mentioned in a previous update, an official permission from the Polish government is required), confront them on site with physical evidence of the crimes that they and their faithful followers deny, and record their comments on this evidence for posterity.

For my own little "photographic expedition" this fall, should it take place, I would be content with the presence of smaller fry like Gerdes or EG to rub some bone fragments under their noses, permission to bring them along from the SAP provided. Of course I don’t expect applying for such permission to be necessary, as either of these bigmouths, from what I've seen of them, is too much a charlatan to even consider showing up.

Who do these people think they are fooling?

Gerdes & Co. can also be seen jumping up and down about this subject on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, where I’ll go now for some more entertainment.

"Muehlenkamp accepts nafcash's challenge" - 11th Update

Original article, 1st update and links to following updates


Update, 22.09.2008, 14:38 GMT

In the 9th update, I had invited the feeble-minded CODOH bigmouth "MrNobody" to debate me on a forum of his choice. As I have no access to the "CODOH Revisionist Forum", I asked my old friend Gerdes, in post # 1300 on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, to extend my invitation to "MrNobody".

Of course Gerdes reacted just like the cowardly, hysterical charlatan he has amply shown himself to be.

Read more!


In his post of Sun Sep 21, 2008 12:31 pm on the CODOH thread NAFCASH throws Muehlenkamp a bone, Gerdes let fly with a staple mantra from our VNN discussions:

But what's even more amazing than the fact that they can't locate / prove the existence of just one tenth of one percent, they can't even locate / prove the existence of one single body, one single pound of bone fragments, one single ounce of human ash, and not so much as one single tooth!

NOT ONE!

which I have slapped around his ears more than once on VNN (see, among others, my posts # 1226 and # 1242, both quoted in today’s post # 1308).

This was followed by more of those pious statements of faith that also characterize Gerdes’ "argumentation":

It's so simple:

There was no Treblinka holocaust.

There was no Sobibor holocaust.

These sites were not extermination centers / death camps.

There were no holocausts within the holocaust at these sites.

Of course it's just for starters, but at the very least, by just looking at just the two camps of Sobibor and Treblinka alone, we can categorically and unequivocally state that:

1/5th of the holocaust didn't happen.

interspersed with a classic example of Gerdian mendacity:

Yes MrNobody, all these facts are debate stoppers. (Just ask MuehlenKamp!)

Gerdes seems to know how empty his bragging is, otherwise he would give "MrNobody" the link to the VNN thread so the poor fellow can see for himself how "effective" Gerdes’ constantly repeated mantras and catchphrases are as "debate stoppers".

Last but not least, there was some more NAFCASH rhetoric:

As is stated on the nafcash site ( http://www.nafcash.com/ ):

"For those of you who lack the courage to accept the above facts and wish to continue to deny the truth, then the ball is in your court. The supporters of THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM have put their money where their mouths are and it’s time for the criminally fraudulent holocaust industry, their mealy-mouthed “skeptical” minions, bought whores in the media and their servile Judas-Goats in our government indoctrination centers to put up or shut up. If you also lack the integrity to acknowledge the fact that there were no holocausts within the holocaust at Sobibor and Treblinka (1/5th of the entire holocaust), then ask yourself this one simple question: Why does THE FINAL SOLUTION FORENSIC CHALLENGE TM reward remain unclaimed?"

Maybe 1/10th of 1% is too hard for them to locate / prove the existence of? Maybe $100,000.00 isn't enough incentive?

First of all, a challenge that goes like "show me so-and-so-many dead bodies or bones of murdered people and I’ll pay you so-and-so-much" is disgusting enough to put off most potential applicants.

Second, the challenge is an obvious hoax, as pointed out in, among others, my VNN posts # 903 and # 1300, the latter regarding the present version of the challenge.

And third, if what is required is a precise quantification of bone fragments adding up to so-and-so many thousand pounds (as I am trying to get the weaseling coward to expressly confirm), it’s not as if one could just take a shovel and dig out bone fragments from the already identified mass graves at Sobibor let alone the still-to-be-precisely-located mass graves at Treblinka, as I have pointed out in previous updates of this article. One needs a permission to do that, which is not so easy to obtain.

But then, it doesn’t take more than Gerdes' lame and transparent rhetoric to make "Revisionist" true believers happy.

"Muehlenkamp accepts nafcash's challenge" - 10th Update

Original article and 1st update

2nd update, 24.07.2008, 23:55 hours GMT

3rd update, 26.07.2008, 15:08 hours GMT

4th update 29.07.2008, 15:00 hours GMT

5th update, 30.07.2008, 23:59 GMT

6th update, 03.08.2008, 0:48 GMT

7th update, 27.08.2008, 23:34 GMT

8th update, 09.09.2008, 12:19 GMT

9th update, 20.09.2008, 22:53 GMT

Update, 21.09.2008, 15:01 GMT

In his post of Sep 20, 2008 5:34 pm on the CODOH thread NAFCASH throws Muehlenkamp a bone, an enlightened spirit using the handle "grenadier" disgraced himself with the message commented hereafter.

Read more!


"grenadier":

Actually, the charlatans often use the fraudulent argument of "the work can't be done on account of religious grounds".

Actually religious considerations of respect for the dead are not a mere pretext but a real issue when it comes to excavation at Nazi mass killing sites, as becomes apparent from the article A Monumental Failure at Belzec, written in 2003 by Rabbi Avi Weiss, and the article New Excavations At Chelmno Death Camp, posted by Shmuel Ben Eliezer in September 2007.

However, as I pointed out in my previous update, such considerations have not hampered archaeological research at the former extermination camps to the extent of preventing archaeological investigations that led to identifying the mass graves and establishing their size and contents, namely at Chelmno, at Belzec (both of which camps, incidentally, have disappeared from the NAFCASH challenge – Gerdes must have got cold feet) and at Sobibor, though in regard to the latter the absence of a published detailed report on archaeological findings still feeds "Revisionist" conspiracy theories and other rhetoric.

"grenadier"

As poster ASMarques correctly remarked, it is not a problem if some French priest excavates a few pits containing a few dozen skeletons of alleged Jews allegedly killed by the EG in the Ukraine, but all of a sudden it becomes an unsurmountable problem when it comes to the AR camps, where in areas the size of large parking lots, some 2 million Jews are supposed to have been buried. What a joke! Rolling Eyes

What the fellow is talking about here is obviously the Yahad in Unum project of Father Patrick Desbois, regarding which he or his source are either misinformed or lying in two respects.

One is that Father Desbois did not just find "a few pits containing a few dozen skeletons". According to this page,

Yahad In Unum has identified and documented relatively small ditches with less than one-thousand victims, mid-sized ditches holding up to ten-thousand victims, and large sites of extermination with over eighty thousands victims.

By October 2007, when this article appeared in the New York Times, Father Desbois had "videotaped more than 700 interviews with witnesses and bystanders and has identified more than 600 common graves of Jews, most of them previously unknown".

The other misconception, deliberate or not, is that Yahad in Unum dug up the graves they found and extracted their contents, as the mouthing of Mr. "grenadier" suggests. According to the aforementioned page, the procedure adopted is the following (emphases added):

In cases where the eyewitnesses are unsure of the precise location of a jewish mass grave, test digging is done in a two square meter area. Oftentimes, several of these test diggings are required in order to find the location of a mass grave. In one particular instance, eighteen test digs were needed. The Nazis buried their victims at a depth of at least three meters, which makes the identification more difficult. According to the eyewitness testimonies, the digging of the ditches took an average of five hours and was done by peasants who arrived very early in the morning. The depth of the mass graves also explains why it was exceedingly rare for any survivors of the shooting to escape from the mass grave after it was covered with dirt and the nazi mobile killing units had moved on.

Once the first bodies are encountered they are left in situ and not disturbed. The bodies are photographed as evidence and any bullets and other ballistic evidence retrieved from the site before the grave is covered up and camouflaged in order not to allow graverobbers to loot and desecrate it. Yahad In Unum’s purpose in identifying and excavating a portion of the mass graves is to document the evidence, provide proof of the mass grave’s existence, and mark the site by GPS. Yahad In Unum has obtained the authorization for this part of the work from the Lubawitscher rabbis of Ukraine.

Detailed information about the results of Father Desbois’ project is available in his recently published book, which I have on order.

"grenadier"

Fact is, had the story been true, we wouldn't even be talking about performing excavations today 'cause the Communists would have done it back in the 1940s.

Actually that’s exactly what the "Communists" did. Regarding Soviet crime site investigations on re-conquered Soviet territory, read Nick Terry’s article Mass Graves in the Polesie and my article Neither the Soviets nor the Poles have found any mass graves with even only a few thousand bodies .... Regarding Treblinka, read my article Polish investigations of the Treblinka killing site were a complete failure ..., featuring Polish crime site investigation reports translated by "Revisionist" gurus Mattogno & Graf and included in their book about Treblinka, thereby making the same a not completely useless piece of writing. Regarding Belzec, Mattogno did historiography a similar favor on pages 79f of his otherwise worthless Belzec book (partially commented in this article), from which the following quote is taken:

On October 12, 1945, the Regional Investigative Judge of the district court of Zamosc, Czeslaw Godzieszewski, presented an "Account of the diggings in the cemetery of the Belzec extermination camp," in which he set down the findings from the inspection of the Belzec camp he had made that day, aided by 12 workers. In this context, he wrote:242
"The opening labeled No. 1 was taken down to a depth of 8 m and a width of 10 m and attained the bottom level of the graves. During the operation, at a depth of about 2 m, we struck the first layer of ash stemming from incinerated human bodies, mixed with sand. This layer was about 1 m thick. The next layer of ash was discovered at a depth of 4 – 6 meters. In the ash removed, some charred remains of human bodies were found, such as hands and arms, women’s hair, as well as human bones not totally burnt. We also recovered pieces of burnt wood. In trench No. 1, the layer of human ash stopped at a depth of 6 meters. The opening labeled No. 2 was taken down to a depth of 6 meters. In this trench, the layer of human ash began at a depth of 1.5 m and continued down to a depth of some 5 m, with occasional breaks. Here, too, the ash contained human hair, part of a human body, pieces of clothing, and remnants of incompletely burnt bones. Openings labeled Nos. 3 and 4 were freed to a depth of 3 meters. In hole No. 4, at a depth of 80 cm, we found a human skull with remnants of skin and hair, as well as two shinbones and a rib. Furthermore, at a level of between one and three meters, these holes yielded human ash mixed with sand and fragments of incompletely burnt human bones. Openings labeled Nos. 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 were dug to a depth of 2 m, but showed only human ash mixed with sand and human bones, such as jawbones and shinbones. Throughout all the excavations it was observed that the camp cemetery had already been disturbed by wildcat diggings; this is borne out by the fact that the layers of human ash are not uniform but mixed with sand. The recovered human bones; the bodily remains, which where in a state of complete decomposition; and the ash were collected in a common location to await the arrival of the district surgeon. Work was stopped at 17:30 hours."
The next day, October 13, 1945, the findings were inspected by the coroner. The subsequent report describes primarily the results of the examination performed by the judge and the coroner:243
"During the inspection of the area of the extermination camp, particularly during the excavations at the place of the cemetery on October 12, 1945, a large number of human bones were found, such as skulls, parts of skulls, vertebrae, ribs, collarbones, shoulder blades, arm bones, lower legs, wrists, fingers, pelvic bones, thigh bones, lower legs, and foot bones. Some of the bones mentioned are either partly burnt or had not been burnt at all. Except for a few skulls showing rotting scalp and hair, the majority of the bones are free from soft tissue. Among the remains of human bodies recovered on October 12, 1945, we identified two forearms and a lumbar portion of the backbone with some soft tissue and traces of carbonization. The lumbar section belongs to an adult, whereas the forearms come from a child a few years old. From the size of the various bones one can conclude that they belong to persons of different age groups, from two-year-olds up to very old people, as borne out by toothless jaws and numerous dentures. Among the jawbones found there was one partially burnt specimen containing milk teeth as well as incipient permanent teeth, which indicates that it belongs to a person 7 to 8 years of age. No traces of bullet holes or other mechanical wounds were found on the skulls. The long bones show no traces either of gunshot wounds or fractures. Because of the advanced state of decomposition it was very difficult to say to what organs the recovered shapeless portions of soft tissue from human bodies might belong. In a hole dug by the local population in a search for gold and valuables, two lower legs belonging to a two-year-old child were discovered. These members are partly decomposed, partly mummified. The area of the cemetery, in particular the wildcat holes, is covered with layers of human ash of varying breadth, which stem from the incineration of human corpses and wood; they are intermingled with sand in varying proportions. The color of the ash varies between light-ash and dark gray; the ash has a heavy consistency and smells of decomposing human bodies. In the ash, charred human bones as well as pieces of charcoal are clearly visible. In the lower strata of the ash the smell of decomposition is more pronounced than in the layers nearer the surface. The hair discovered belongs mainly to women, as shown by their length and by the type of arrangement (braids and buns fixed with hairpins). In addition to natural hair, we encountered ladies’ wigs as well. With this, the inspection was terminated."

Mr. "grenadier" could have done something about his woeful ignorance by just reading some of his "Revisionist" scripture.

"grenadier"

But it's all a L-I-E, a filthy and horrendous lie!
There were no homicidal gassings during the war. Niemand wurde vergast!

The more often and intensely "Revisionists" repeat such pious prayers, the more I wonder to what extent they really believe their own BS.

Meanwhile, on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, Greg Gerdes continues showing what a charlatan, coward and obnoxious crackpot he is. See my post # 1300 on that thread.

"Muehlenkamp accepts nafcash's challenge" - 9th Update

Original article and 1st update

2nd update, 24.07.2008, 23:55 hours GMT

3rd update, 26.07.2008, 15:08 hours GMT

4th update 29.07.2008, 15:00 hours GMT

5th update, 30.07.2008, 23:59 GMT

6th update, 03.08.2008, 0:48 GMT

7th update, 27.08.2008, 23:34 GMT

8th update, 09.09.2008, 12:19 GMT

Update, 20.09.2008, 22:53 GMT

In his post of Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:28 pm on the CODOH thread NAFCASH throws Muehlenkamp a bone (previously commented here and here), Gerdes announced his latest NAFCASH publicity stunt.

Read more!


Gerdes wrote:

The new nafcash update is done.

http://www.nafcash.com/

Simplified and clarified.

Lighter and tighter.

So easy, even Roberto Muehlenkamp should be able to figure it out.


We have an exact kind of evidence.

We have an exact amount of evidence.

We have an exact location where the evidence has to be located / proven to exist.


And it could all be located / proven to exist by a blind man with a toy plastic shovel.

Just 1/10th of 1% of easily identifiable and quantifiable remains.

Now just how hard should that be - IF - the story is true?

(The only way the reward could be made any easier to win is to offer $100,000.00 for simply spelling Sobibor and Treblinka correctly!).

I have commented this transparent hoax I in my post # 1297 on the VNN thread Archeological Investigations of Treblinka, from which the following excerpt was adapted to this blog’s HTML.

Gerdes:

It's done!

What, has Gerdes finally got himself a brain?

I doubt it …

Gerdes:

Here it is faggot:

http://www.nafcash.com/

Read it and weep dull one.

Looks like I was right with my doubts. :D

And I’m actually laughing at this latest display of Gerdian mendacity.

Gerdes:

Simplified and clarified.

Lighter and tighter.

So easy, even a retard like Roberta should be able to figure it out.

We have an exact kind of evidence.

We have an exact amount of evidence.

We have an exact location where the evidence has to be located / proven to exist.

I must have missed something, because the only thing new I found on the site of the National Association of Fish-wives, Cretins and Screaming Hysterics (members: Gerdes, Gerdes, and Gerdes) is this:

For locating / proving the existence of - just ONE TENTH OF ONE PERCENT of the alleged bone fragments.

which raises a number of questions:

1. What amount of bone fragments (not human remains of all kinds, just bone fragments) is supposed to have been "alleged" at either camp? If your calculations "derived from figures used by Arnulf Neumaier in The Treblinka Holocaust" are supposed to refer to bone fragments alone (to the exclusion of other types of remains mentioned in the following question), please show us how you did these calculations.

2. Why so particular about bone fragments, all of a sudden? What about other types of human remains, like ashes of bone or tissue, teeth, whole bones, and whole bodies in wax-fat transformation? Do they not count anymore? If so, why not?

3. What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigator's or an archaeologist's report about remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

4. Why does the challenge refer to Treblinka and Sobibor alone and not to Belzec, although Belzec was also an extermination camp of the Aktion Reinhard(t) murder operation? What was the criterion – other than cowardly convenience – for leaving Belzec out of the challenge?

Please answer these questions, Mr. Gerdes.

Anyway, I must thank you already for not only living up to my prediction, see post # 1276 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p=844116&postcount=1276 :

Again, my prediction is that the update of the NAFCASH challenge

• Will consist in removing the "exact location of a mass grave" requirement (big fucking deal as concerns Sobibor, where the exact location of at least four mass graves can be made out with the naked eye on a satellite photograph, see under http://maps.pomocnik.com/satellite-maps/?map=4194, that was kindly provided by Gerdes himself) and demanding "only" that proof of human remains corresponding to x number of victims at Sobibor or Treblinka be provided;

• Will not contain a statement as to what will be accepted as proof of human remains corresponding to x number of victims at Sobibor or Treblinka. Specifying his proof requirements is something that charlatan Gerdes avoids like vampires avoid garlic (hence his having not replied to my blog article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2008/09/muehlenkamp-accepts-nafcashs-challenge.html), which means that the challenge will remain the same hoax it was before.

And a hoax it will remain even if Gerdes should make the "just one percent" into "just 1/10th of one percent", because what can be proven more or less easily depends not on the amount of human amounts to be proven but on the standards of proof applied.

but even exceeding my expectations, as concerns your mendacity and cowardice, by limiting the type of human remains relevant for meeting the challenge requirements to bone fragments alone.

Gerdes:

(And it could all be located / proven to exist by a blind man with a toy plastic shovel.)

For someone who calls himself a "forensic historian", you have a particularly infantile idea of the difficulties involved in finding and quantifying partial human remains contained in a mass grave.

Let’s take a look at the "6.351 million pounds" of human remains at Treblinka (or is that only bone fragments, Mr. Gerdes?) that you try to impress suckers with.

First of all, your calculation is wrong. Even 870,000 human beings (the documented number is more like 750,000) weighing 45 kg on average (a gross exaggeration, considering that deportees to Treblinka were mostly women, children and skinny old folks) would have left behind no more than 870,000 x 45 x 5 % = 1,957,500 kg of cremation remains, the 5 % being based on Mattogno’s experimental data. That’s 4.316 million pounds, not 6.351 million.

Second and more important, and as I have explained before, what matters for how easy or how difficult it is to find human remains is not their weight but their volume in relation to the total volume of the mass graves they were returned to.

Let’s assume for a moment that your 6.351 million pounds are correct. 6,351,000 pounds are 2,880,765 kilograms or 2,881 tons of human cremation remains. The volume of this mass of human cremation remains, again according to Mattogno’s data, would be 5,762 cubic meters. Even if at Treblinka they managed to bury the bodies at a concentration of 15 per cubic meter before cremating them (which is not improbable, although Mattogno considers 8 per cubic meter to be the maximum, at least when it suits him), 870,000 dead bodies would have occupied 58,000 cubic meters of grave space prior to cremation. If 5,762 cubic meters of cremation remains were returned to 58,000 cubic meters of grave space together with wood ash and soil, the human cremation remains would make up less than ten per cent of the volume of the mass graves. Assuming Mattogno’s 8 corpses per cubic meter, the burial volume would be 108,750 cubic meters, and the cremation remains would occupy a mere 5.30 % of the total volume. And that’s assuming that all cremation remains were returned to the graves and none were scattered in the woods or somewhere else.

This alone means that finding human remains in the mass graves at Treblinka is not exactly a piece of cake. But before on starts excavating – which as concerns Treblinka would require removal of the memorial stones and their foundation in at least as substantial part of the area, something I doubt that anyone will grant permission for – one first has to precisely locate the mass graves in the area, which – unlike at Belzec and also at Sobibor – has not yet been done at Treblinka. And after one has excavated soil containing cremation remains, it will be necessary to separate the human remains from the soil and wood ashes they are mixed with, in order to quantify them. This is obviously easier as concerns bone fragments than as concerns ashes, where such separation is extremely difficult if not impossible, but it’s still a lot of work.

If what you want is 6,351 pounds of bone fragments from Treblinka or 1,825 pound of bone fragments from Sobibor (please confirm that this is what you’re asking for), and if the evidence you demand as proof is a precise physical quantification of excavated remains (please confirm that this is so, or specify what other evidence you would accept as proof), there’s a good chance (assuming that permission and piety issues can be solved) that at least the quantity you demand will sooner or later be excavated and recorded. But claiming that it’s something "a blind man with a toy plastic shovel" could do only shows, once more, just how far from the real world the kindergarten cloud-cuckoo-land of Greg Gerdes is.

Gerdes:

So what are you waiting for faggot?

Right now I’m waiting for self-projecting-as-usual Gerdes to answer my above questions:

1. What amount of bone fragments (not human remains of all kinds, just bone fragments) is supposed to have been "alleged" at either camp? If your calculations "derived from figures used by Arnulf Neumaier in The Treblinka Holocaust" are supposed to refer to bone fragments alone (to the exclusion of other types of remains mentioned in the following question), please show us how you did these calculations.

2. Why so particular about bone fragments, all of a sudden? What about other types of human remains, like ashes of bone or tissue, teeth, whole bones, and whole bodies in wax-fat transformation? Do they not count anymore? If so, why not?

3. What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigator's or an archaeologist's report about remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

4. Why does the challenge refer to Treblinka and Sobibor alone and not to Belzec, although Belzec was also an extermination camp of the Aktion Reinhard(t) murder operation? What was the criterion – other than cowardly convenience – for leaving Belzec out of the challenge?

Gerdes:

What's wrong - 1/10th of 1% too hard for you?

How hard or how easy it is, as I said before, depends on what standards of proof you apply.

If you apply reasonable standards of proof, then proving that quantity of human remains at Treblinka is a piece of cake. All it takes is the following excerpt from the Polish site investigation report of 29 December 1945, which is part of exhibit A.3.1.4 in my post # 172 under http://206.41.117.128/showpost.php?p=793471&postcount=172 :

In the northwestern section of the area, the surface is covered for about 2 hectares by a mixture of ashes and sand. In this mixture, one finds countless human bones, often still covered with tissue remains, which are in a condition of decomposition. During the inspection, which I made with the assistance of an expert in forensic medicine, it was determined that the ashes are without any doubt of human origin (remains of cremated human bones). The examination of human skulls could discover no trace of« wounding. At a distance of some 100 m, there is now an unpleasant odor of burning and decay.

If the layer of ashes and sand was only 2 centimeters high and half of that was human ashes – two rather conservative assumptions – we have 20,000 x 0,01 = 200 cubic meters of human ashes. 200 cubic meters of ashes, according to Mattogno (as quoted under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec_30.html ) correspond to 100 tons of ashes. 100 tons of ashes, also according to Mattogno, correspond to a live weight of 2,000 tons or 2,000,000 kg. 2,000,000 kg, assuming a somewhat exaggerated average weight of 45 kg per person, as Mattogno does, correspond to well over 40,000 human beings. Even assuming a ridiculously unrealistic average of 60 kg per person, they would correspond to well over 30,000 dead bodies.

But let’s be even more generous and assume, contrary to what the above-quoted site investigation report tells us, that only 20 % of the ashes mixed with sand that covered the area were human ashes, the rest being wood ash. That would give us 40 cubic meters or 20 tons of ashes lying above the ground in this area. 20 tons of ashes = 400 tons or 400,000 kg of live weight. At a somewhat exaggerated 45 kg per person, that’s almost 8,900 people. Even at a ridiculously exaggerated 60 kg per person, it’s almost 6,700 people. And what you’re now calling for is 870 for Treblinka, 250 for Sobibor. Better think your bullshit over again.

Of course, if you want a precise physical quantification of human remains separated for this purpose from the soil and wood ashes they are probably mixed with after all the robbery-digging that took place in the area of these camps, you’ll have to wait at least until excavation is done in the mass graves at Sobibor. This requires a special permission from the Polish government, which the SAP is doing its best to obtain.

Gerdes:

BTW, if you have any questions about what the definition of:

locate / proven to exist

Means, contact the "SKEPTICS" Society / "SKEPTIC" Magazine.

Unless Gerdes pledges to accept and submit to the criteria of SKEPTIC magazine (do you, Mr. Gerdes?), he’s just running away from my question like the whimpering coward he has amply shown to be. The question, included in the above list of questions, is the following:

What would you accept as proof that a certain minimum amount of bone fragments lies in the area? Will a substantiated calculation based on a crime site investigators’ or an archaeologist’s description of remains lying above or beneath the ground be sufficient? Or do you want a detailed physical quantification of excavated bone fragments, separated for this purpose from the soil, wood ash and human ashes surrounding them?

Gerdes:

And no, it doesn't mean:

"Assumptions based on estimates based on descriptions."

That’s "estimates based on evidence, such as descriptions contained in crime site investigation reports or archaeological reports", as filthy liar Gerdes well knows.

How more often are you going to repeat this mendacious misrepresentation of my argument, Mr. Gerdes? Guess I’ll start counting your lies again from now on, as I used to do in our early Topix discussions.

Gerdes:

(What are you - retarded, or what?)

That’s a question you no longer even have to ask yourself, Mr. Gerdes. Your behavior has long answered it positively.

Gerdes’ bigmouthed babbling in his CODOH post (where he left out the self-projecting invective that is probably meant to get applause from the VNN knuckle-draggers) must have impressed the aptly named "MrNobody", who in his post of Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:09 pm uttered the following wisdom:

You know that when they have exhausted all their arguments, they are just going to claim they are unable to access the site for a Forensic study because it would be "Sacrilegious" to do so.

Chicken will have teeth before knowledgeable opponents of "Revisionist" BS exhaust all their arguments, especially against the likes of Gerdes and "MrNobody". As to the "sacrilegious" thing, concerns about respect for the dead are indeed an issue that has somewhat hampered archaeological research at the former extermination camps – but not to the extent of preventing archaeological investigations that led to identifying the mass graves and establishing their size and contents, namely at Chelmno, at Belzec (both of which camps, incidentally, have disappeared from the NAFCASH challenge – Gerdes must have got cold feet) and at Sobibor, though in regard to the latter the absence of a published detailed report on archaeological findings still feeds "Revisionist" conspiracy theories and other rhetoric. As I have been informed by Yoram Haimi, director of the Sobibor Archaeological Project, efforts are under way to overcome "holy ground" considerations, on the part of the Polish government, that stand in the way of excavating the known mass grave areas.

"MrNobody" continues:

Greg, the best part about your site is that it is a Debate Stopper, many times on blogs & youtube videos I have demolished the opposition by simply asking them to take up your NAFCASH Challenge, putting an end to denial & earning $100,000 to boot!

Needless to say, they never have a comeback.

Somehow I cannot picture this feeble-minded bigmouth venturing into open debate and shooting his bull outside the warm and cozy CODOH Führerbunker.

But if he does, he is cordially invited to try his "Debate Stopper" rhetoric on me, be it on VNN, on RODOH or on another forum of his choice. As I have no access to CODOH, Gerdes will be requested to extend my invitation to "MrNobody", as I have previously requested him to invite Jonni "Hannover" Hargis to VNN for a chat with me. Of course I don’t expect Gerdes, whose cowardice is only matched by that of Hargis, to ever comply with either request.


10th update, 21.09.2008, 15:01 GMT

Gerdes lied through his teeth again …

... this time on the CODOH thread 192,000,000 teeth.

Read more!


In his post Sep 06, 2008 5:48 pm on the mentioned thread, Gerdes posted a lengthy quote from "Revisionist" scripture, about the corpse incineration procedure at Treblinka as described in selectively quoted snippets from eyewitness testimonies, and mouthed off about someone who seems to figure prominently in his nightmares, as follows:

Oh, you're not going to believe this - classic Muehlenkamp. I posted the following on VNN about the insane cremation claims at the alleged "pure extermination centers:"

[quote from scripture]

And this is what the dull one had to say about the above:

"Nothing implausible about that... Eyewitness descriptions of the process are essentially correct."

Pure, unadulterated insanity.

As my mendacious friend well knows, my comments about the quoted excerpt from an unidentified "Revisionist" work of art were somewhat more elaborate. See my VNN posts numbers 1113, 1213, 1226 and 1241, the last of which contains the most detailed deconstruction of the unidentified "Revisionist" guru's wisdom and especially addresses the fellow’s "logistical" arguments.

Gerdes’ next lie can be found in his post Mon Sep 15, 2008 11:05 pm on the aforementioned CODOH thread. There he shows Buchenwald photos obviously taken from my RODOH thread Mass Graves and Dead Bodies (the captions, as Gerdes well knows, are not mine but from the source featuring these photos, the Archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House) and muses how "6.351 million pounds" of cremation remains are supposed to have "magically disappeared after being covered over with a layer of soil" at Treblinka.

After our long discussions about human remains at Treblinka and the documentation of huge amounts of such remains found by investigators that he has been shown, especially the excerpts from Polish crime site investigation reports quoted in my VNN post # 172 (exhibit A.3.1.4), even an inveterate liar like Gerdes should know better than to peddle the beaten straw-man that human remains are claimed to have disappeared without a trace.

But then, CODOH is a forum for uncritical "Revisionist" minds kept by censorship from looking through the telescope, and Gerdes is also not the brightest of liars.

The rhetorical mantra of "so-and-so-many-million-pounds of cremation remains" or "so-and-so-many million-teeth" has been dealt with, by the way, in my VNN post # 1242, from which the following quotes are taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
And let's not forget the alleged 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.

Assuming that the about 1,330,000 victims of the AR camps (430,000 at Belzec, 150,000 at Sobibor, 750,000 at Treblinka) weighed 35 kg on average (a reasonable assumption considering the large proportion of women and children, and also the fact that most of these people came from miserable Polish ghettos and therefore were not exactly well-fed), the life weight was 46,550,000 kg. Cremation leftovers, according to Mattogno’s experimental data, would amount to 5 % of that, i.e. 2,327,500 kg or 5,131,259 pounds. And what matters when it comes to finding and identifying these cremation remains is not their weight, but their volume in relation to the volume of soil they were buried with. The volume of 2,327.5 tons of human cremation remains, also according to Mattogno, would be 4,655 cubic meters. Assuming 8 bodies per cubic meter in a mass grave, which even Mattogno considers plausible (actually the concentration may well have been higher considering a number of factors, see e.g. my article under http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2006/06/videos-must-see.html ), and that all bodies were buried before being burned (actually about 70,000 out of the 150,000 killed at Sobibor and about 40,000 of the 750,000 killed at Treblinka were burned immediately after being killed), the mass grave volume required to bury 1,330,000 bodies would be 166,250 cubic meters. So when the cremation remains were returned to the mass graves, they occupied a mere 4,655 ÷ 166,250 = 2.80 % of the volume of the mass graves to which they were returned, the remaining 97.20 % being wood ash of soil. If we instead assume that they managed to bury 15 bodies in one mass grave before exhuming the mass graves and burning the bodies, the volume required would be ca. 88,700 cubic meters. In that case the cremation remains returned to the mass grave would make out 4,655 ÷ 88,700 = 5.25 %, the remaining 94.75 % being wood ash or soil. A ratio of 18:1

So the idea that Gerdes is trying to force-feed the suckers he expects his readers to be is that it would be a piece of cake to find one pound of human cremation remains among an amount of soil and wood ash 18 times higher, and to separate the human cremation remains from much higher amounts of soil and wood ash and to accurately quantify the human cremation remains.

This, of course, is bullshit of such magnitude that it takes a "Revisionist" true believer to swallow it. But then, "Revisionist" true believers are the audience that Gerdes is playing to here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerdes
Now show us where the other 3,999,999 teeth are that are mixed with the 8.25 million pounds of crushed bone.

Your calculations are wrong, my dear Gerdes. And while I can show you any amount of human remains that logically follows from the documentary, eyewitness and physical evidence by simply referring to that evidence, I’d say that before I have to show anything bigmouth Gerdes should substantiate his assumptions, i.e.

1. Demonstrate that, despite the fragility resulting from cremation at high temperatures, most of the victims’ teeth must still be lying intact in the soil of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka;

2. Provide a calculation as to what volume the number of teeth he can demonstrate to have probably survived must occupy inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka.

3. Demonstrate that it should be easy to find teeth when excavating the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor and Treblinka. That might well the hardest part of Gerdes’ exercise. Let’s say a tooth has a volume of 1 cubic centimeter or 0.000001 cubic meters. Even the 36 million teeth that Gerdes babbles about would then have a total volume of, go figure, just 36 cubic meters. Given a minimum mass grave volume of 88,700 cubic meters, see above, even 36 million teeth would occupy just 0.04 % of volume of the mass graves, the rest being other human remains (about 5.21 % of the total volume) and wood ash and soil (about 94.75 % of the volume).

This means that every surviving tooth inside the mass graves of Belzec, Sobibor or Treblinka would be surrounded by:

a) a volume 128 times higher of other human remains, and
b) a volume 2,335 times higher of wood ash and soil, and
c) a volume 2,463 times higher of matter other than tooth.

Still trying to tell us that it would be easy to find teeth inside the mass graves, Mr. Gerdes?

Mass Graves at Sobibor – 4th Update

Original article

1st update

2nd update

3rd update

5th update

6th update

7th update

8th update

9th update

10th update


Following Gerdes’ posts commented in the previous update, posting on the thread My email to archeological 'expert' Yoram Haimi has interestingly not amounted to much.

Read more!


In his post of Mon Sep 15, 2008 12:29, "KostasL" gave a speech about the possibilities of modern archaeology, marveling at how archaeologists managed to establish that Napoleonic soldiers in the 1812 Russian campaign died of famine rather than typhus (famine has an impact on the bones and can thus be established by examining the bones; whether death from carbon monoxide poisoning or suffocation can be established on the basis of bone fragments, whole bones or even whole bodies in wax-fat transformation is another matter).

Laurentz Dahl, in his post of Mon Sep 15, 2008 7:10 on the same thread, echoed his brother-in-spirit’s praise of modern archaeology and mused about why Prof. Kola didn’t publish his findings regardless of payment or applied to the USHMM "for the necessary bucks".

In his post of Mon Sep 15, 2008 10:58, Jonni "Hannover" Hargis, a.k.a. Mr. "This is too easy" (so easy that you never dare to post outside your own forum and don’t even allow opposition in there, right, Jonni?) spins another of his idiotic conspiracy theories about the "judeo-supremacist 'holocaust' Industry" and claims that "Revisionists" have shown "on this forum and elsewhere" that "Kola has nothing" (where exactly are "Revisionists" supposed to have shown that, Jonni? ).

One thing is interestingly missing in all this crackpot babbling: none of the self-appointed truth-seekers says another word about the Sobibor mass grave areas that can be made out on the air photo taken in July 2008 by Paul Bauman, which was sent to me by Yoram Haimi, director of the Sobibor Archaeological Project:



and on the satellite photo found and pointed out by Gerdes, an enlarged segment of which is shown below:



These notably greener areas, as pointed out in this article's 1st update, coincide with mass grave areas plotted on an unpublished map related to Prof. Kola's archaeological investigation of the Sobibor area in 2001, which are also drawn on the memorial map shown below:



None of those enlightened "Revisionist" spirits, not even the comparatively capable Dahl, has even attempted to explain this coincidence, or to provide an alternative explanation for the greener areas that would be more convincing than the "crop sowing" nonsense peddled by the genius who appropriately calls himself "MrNobody" (see the original article) or Gerdes’ inane fantasy about manipulative landscaping and turf-building, commented in the 1st update.

That’s what I would call deafening silence.

Mass Graves at Sobibor – 3rd Update

Original article

1st update

2nd update

4th update

5th update

6th update

7th update

8th update

9th update

10th update


As shown in the original article and the previous two updates, at least three of the mass graves in the former "Camp III" sector of Sobibor extermination camp can be made out on an air photo by Paul Bauman, and which sent to me by Yoram Haimi, director of the Sobibor Archaeological Project:



Read more!


And at least four of these mass graves are visible on my enlargement of a satellite photo provided by none other than my special friend Greg Gerdes:



who shot himself in the foot by pointing out this satellite photo.

After spouting a hilariously idiotic conspiracy theory about manipulative "turf-building" and "landscaping", see the 1st update, Gerdes has apparently decided that it was better for his articles of faith not to push this issue any further and limit his utterances in this respect to his beaten "alleged" and "(not)one single this-and-that" – rhetoric, which is too stupid to warrant further comment.

Instead he has, perhaps in order to distract attention from his satellite photo blunder and/or to help himself get over it, turned to making a fuss about the monument known as the "ash mountain", which currently has the aspect visible on the above air and satellite photo and on the ground photos like the one below from the Sobibor Archaeological Project's website:



In his post of Sep 13, 2008 3:55 pm on the thread My email to archeological 'expert' Yoram Haimi, Gerdes blusters away as follows:

We have an anwer to the question:

"Where is the giant pit that all those alleged human remains were dug out of in constructing Sobibor's "ash mountain / huge pile of human remians?"

RM:

Quote:
"It was made with soil collected from above the ground, which included human ashes and bone fragments"

LOL!!!! So what he / Yoram are saying is - huge piles of human remains were found, collected, piled into a giant mound, yet not one single photo of this was taken. Not one single report was made. All the evidence that was above the level ground was collected, but the evidence that was below the level of the ground was not collected. And everyone simply forgot about this incredible discovery for 35 years until Kola "discovered" the "huge mass graves."

There's never a dull moment when dealing with the dull one!

In his post of Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:02 pm on the same thread, he follows up this blustering with the following sermon:

Yes MrNobody - NO EVIDENCE AT ALL.

NOT ONE single pit where the remains of the "ash mountain / huge mound of human remains." allegedly came from. The dull one seems to think that it's possible for a mountain to just appear magically. If the mountain was made from collected soil above the ground, that soil / remains obviously had to have been dug up out of pits from below ground. In this way, the dull one is trying to get by with an "explaination" for the existence of a huge mound without having to show where the corresponding huge pit or series of small pits came from. (It must be nice to live in Wonderland huh?)

And not one single photo of the "ash mountain / huge pile of human remains" construction. Not one single report of the original discovery of the alleged remains of tens of thousands of jews. (Look at the size of the mound in comparison to the alleged mass graves. It would contain at least 50% of all human remains found on site - IF the story is true.)

And not just one single pit, they have yet to prove the existence of one single grave, one single body, one single pound of crushed bone or even so much as one single tooth.

NOTHING.

The more I study Sobibor, the more I believe that it is the most vacuous of all the nonsensical holocausts within the holocaust. (Now that's saying something!) And the great thing about it all is, I have the dullest of the dull to thank for all my new knowledge! Every lie that it tells is just another opportunity for me to do more research and learn new things. (Thank you dull one.)

What the poor fellow is trying to tell us – or to convince himself of, his hysteria indicating that he doesn’t quite believe his BS himself – is that the supposed absence of photographic records of or reports about the monument’s construction or the pits from which the monument's contents were supposedly taken, which he postulates would have been a spectacular discovery at the time, means that the contents of the "ash mountain" are not what their designation suggests them to be, i.e. that the mound does not contain human ashes.

As so often before, Gerdes has it all wrong again and just succeeded in once more revealing his ignorance and the poverty of his reasoning.

First of all, it’s not exactly realistic (to put it politely) to assume that photos or reports about the making of the monument at Sobibor and the origin of it’s contents do not exist just because they are not available in English on the internet, as Gerdes obviously does. What is more, much information available in Poland, namely about crime site investigations and robbery digging at former extermination camp sites, has only recently been made available to the public at all, on the web or otherwise. For instance, the first translations from Polish of examining judge Lukaszkiewicz’ report of 13.11.1945 about excavations on the site of Treblinka extermination camp were published, as far as I know, in Mattogno & Graf’s book Treblinka: Extermination Camp or Transit Camp?, the English language edition of which appeared in October 2002 (it’s a bid sad to note that no historian, at least outside Poland, seems to have taken note of this important documentation of physical evidence to the mass murder at Treblinka, and that the first to point it out were "Revisionist" charlatans trying – rather unconvincingly, as I pointed out in my related article – to use it in support of their contentions). Another example is evidence related to the robbery digging at Treblinka, most of which was only conveyed to the public outside Poland through Dr. Neander’s translation into German of a Polish newspaper article that appeared in January 2008 and my English translation of Dr. Neander’s translation (both available on the RODOH thread Gold Rush in Treblinka). The article’s revelations about the "Treblinka Gold Rush" are news even inside Poland, and rather embarrassing ones at that.

Second, it’s not as if the human remains contained in the soil that the "ash mountain" monument was made of had been a spectacular discovery when the monument was built in the 1960s, moreover one that could be expected to have been made known even beyond the Iron Curtain at a time when historical, forensic and public interest in the Nazi genocide of the Jews was awakening. For the Polish government and Polish society these remains, just like the human remains lying around at Belzec and Treblinka, were related to what can be called a dirty secret, something that many knew but few talked or wrote about: the robbery-digging, by people seeking for valuables supposed to have been buried with the murdered Jews, that had brought these remains to the surface, and that had been going on since the respective areas had been overrun by the Red Army in 1944. As concerns Treblinka, this robbery digging is the subject of the aforementioned Polish newspaper article, which mentions the embarrassment felt by those who were aware of and mostly chose to remain silent about it:

Martyna Rusiniak thinks that a part of the pits are the hyena's heritage. Especially from the time when bombs were used for "extraction". The young historian shows us photos of the largest postwar excavation sites. The pits have a length of ten meters, one of them looks like the cuction pit of a several-story building.

"Loud" excavations may have taken place until the end of the 1950s. However, no one wanted to have heard the detonations in the former camp.[my emphasis – RM] After publication of Rachela Auerbach's book in 1947 the official press was silent about the gold fever[my emphasis – RM] – with one exception. In 1957 "Trybuna Mazowiecka" brought a sharp article headed "The Shame". The author, L. Wieluński, indignant about the ravishing, wrote about the grave robbers: "The paw of the animal, clad in human skin, the paw that digs out human corpses, corpses of martyrs, slaps us in the face every single day. A slap that dishonors and hurts."

Robbery digging was also commonplace at Belzec and Sobibor, as mentioned by Yitzhak Arad on page 380 of his book Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka. The Operation Reinhard Death Camps:

Scenes of this kind took also place in the fields of Belzec and Sobibor. The search for treasures continued. The area was dug up again and again, and each section of the land was checked thoroughly by local people and people from afar who tried their luck. These acts ceased only when the Polish government decided to turn the camp areas into national memorial sites.

Given the embarrassment over this phenomenon by those who were confronted with it, it would not be surprising at all if photographic and/or written records of what the extermination camp sites looked like before memorials were erected there had been and mostly still were hidden in archives, rather than being made the subject of public attention as would correspond to Gerdes’ ignorant postulations.

Nevertheless there are some exceptions to the rule. A few photographs taken during or shortly after World War II, which clearly or probably show the results of robbery-digging, made it to the archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House. These photos are shown hereafter.


GFH caption: "The woods of Sobibor, photographed after the war."


GFH caption: "The woods in the area where the Sobibor extermination camp had stood."


GFH caption: "Pits in the woods near the Sobibor extermination camp, in which victims were buried."

The first of these photos shows a wood clearing with a mound of what seems to be upturned/excavated soil, probably the work of robbery diggers.

The second photo shows upturned soil, the lighter tone of which compared to its surroundings is not the result of overexposure, and in the background also a man with his back turned to the camera, who could be a robbery digger.

The third photo shows a pit in the ground, clearly the work of robbery diggers. Soil extracted from the pit can be seen in the foreground.

Upturned soil such as visible in these pictures is what the "ash mountain" monument was made of. It is doubtful, however, whether – as Gerdes would have it – all soil brought to the surface by robbery diggers went into this monument, because human bone fragments, such as can be seen on this photograph, still litter the area around the mass graves.

Gerdes also reveals a wrong idea of the importance of the "ash mountain" as a receptacle of human remains when he claims that it "would contain at least 50% of all human remains found on site" because it has a larger area than the "alleged" mass graves surrounding it.

As can be seen on my enlarged and commented version of Gerdes’ satellite photo:



the area covered by the "ash mountain" is in fact larger than any of the mass graves that can be made out on this photo. However, the mound doesn’t seem to be very high. Considering the following photos from the archives of the Ghetto Fighters’ House:


GFH caption: "A glass display case containing ashes and bones of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp"


GFH caption: "Miriam Novitch at the remembrance site on the grounds of the Sobibor extermination camp, photographed beside the place where bones and ashes of those who perished in the camp had been gathered"


GFH caption: "A mound of the remains of victims of the Sobibor extermination camp, at the remembrance site on the grounds of the camp"

the mound has by my estimate a height of 3 meters or so at its tip and two meters or less throughout most of its area. The mass graves found by Prof. Kola in 2001, on the other hand, have an average depth of 4.6 meters. And what is more, we don’t know in what proportion human ashes were present in soil dug up by treasure seekers, which would depend on how deep these people dug.

So stating that the "ash mountain" must contain a high proportion or even "at least 50%" of the human remains in the Sobibor mass graves area is another baseless postulation.

But then, what better than baseless postulations can one expect from a benighted fanatic who ignores or dismisses all evidence he is shown and repeats his "(not) one single this-and-that" - mantra over and over again, and who in all seriousness demands that his opponent show what pit or pits the content of the Sobibor "ash mountain" came from?